Wilma

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by Crotonologist, Nov 28, 2010.

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  1. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    The recent mentions of Wilma on some other threads led me to do a little digging on the internet...
    I found some interesting history from the Department of Agriculture Fisheries & Forestry - Australia.
    I never would have guessed that Petra and Mrs. Iceton (the baby Daddy!) were the parents of Wilma....

    Plant Varieties Journal vol. 15 no. 4, page 24:
    http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/pdfs/plantbreed/PVJ_Vol_154.pdf

    Quote--------------------
    ‘Wilma’
    Application No: 2002/121 Accepted: 19 Jun 2002.
    Applicant: Vulcan Plants Produktontwikkeling B.V.,
    Rockanje, The Netherlands.
    ...
    Origin and Breeding Controlled pollination: seed parent
    ‘Petra’ x ‘Iceton’ in 1992 in an ongoing breeding program
    in The Netherlands. The seed parent is characterised by
    unlobed leaves. The colour of the leaves of the pollen
    parent fades during winter time. From this cross, a seedling
    was identified as thicker and stronger lobed leaves with
    yellow inter veinal variegation and green veins and better
    winter hardiness. It was vegetatively propagated through
    several generations to confirm uniformity and stability.
    Selection criteria: thicker and stronger lobed leaves with
    yellow inter veinal variegation and green veins compared
    to any existing variegated varieties. Propagation:
    vegetatively propagated by cuttings. Breeder: Andre de
    Gruyter, Rockanje, The Netherlands.
    Unquote---------------------------------------------
     

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  2. Plant Nut

    Plant Nut Active Member

    Messages:
    114
    I find that information very interesting. You certainly are an asset to this forum.
     
  3. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    This sounds to me that what many of us over here on the east coast and have been calling this plant Wilma all along, could be correct. Others seem to feel that this was the true Colonel Bob Bullock.

    Ray, Keith, Phil?


    Crotonologist....very interesting find! Thanks.
     
  4. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Interesting indeed. I'll still let Bob A. make the final verdict since he'll be there anyway. The only issue I see with the catalogue's description is that the tertiary color is red and the plant we've been calling Bob Bullock matures more pink, not red. There's also no orange to speak of so some of the descriptions are in question.
     
  5. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    We may be dealing with two different plants that for all practical purposes look almost the same. We now know that Wilma dates from 1992 as per Crotonologist's fine post above. What is the first reference anyone has to Col Bob Bullock? I suspect it will be earlier than 1992. Recall that minor color changes can also be a function of light conditions, general plant health, age of leaves, and so on.

    Onward through the fog
     
  6. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Phil,

    Frank Brown's first Croton book from 1960 mention's Col. Bob Bullock. No picture, but it does give a brief discription of it.

    What I have as C. BB, and ID'd as such from Bob A, I will be bringing a nice size 3 gallon plant over for everyone to look at, poke at, gawk at, push around, made fun of, oggle over, and probably offer to take it "off" of my hands. This is one nice croton that I really hope we can clear up!
     
  7. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Dr. Frank Brown referenced Colonel Bob Bullock on page 114 in Florida's Beautiful Crotons 1960 - 50 years ago. :eek:

    Peyton - thank you for your research! :cool:

    The fog is getting thicker?
     
  8. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    one further question - when and if did Wilma make it across the Pacific from Oz to Florida and enter the nursery trade? or did it come from the Netherlands?

    So we have two distinct origins of two plants that look almost alike - if anyone can tell the difference without tracing the plant in question to it origins...

    or as Hunter Thmopson used to say," If you think you know what's going on, you're full of...."
     
  9. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    Phil, I think Wilma came from The Netherlands, and the Australian journal reference was just the publication for patent rights in Australia.

    Apparently the Colonel Bob Bullock with the most google hits seems to have been an officer of the Confederacy during the Civil War, which makes me think that the croton with his name is a pretty old cultivar.
    So far I haven't been able to dredge up anything on the internet older than Dr. Brown's 1960 reference.

    I don't know if this helps any, but here's a nice watercolor of Colonel Bob Bullock from 1970 by Gordon Gee from the Christchurch City Libraries in New Zealand:
    http://christchurchcitylibraries.com/DigitalCollection/Illustrations/Gee/Gee-0095.asp
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Bullwinkle

    Bullwinkle Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    1,460
    Location:
    DAVIE FL
    I think that Wilma looks like the right call for my front yard croton:)
     
  11. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Ohhh, it's going to be so interesting on December 11th. I can't wait!
     
  12. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    The posted New Zealander image of Bob Bullock is identical to the Wilma leaf image in the Australian catalogue, Figure 30. I'm starting to think this may be more than Bob Alonzo will be able to address in two weeks.

    Take a look inside the November 2009 Croton Society newsletter for yet another image of what could be Colonel Bob Bullock.
     
  13. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    Welll, I wouldn't say identical, though similar certainly works...
    I suspect that if one could grow these two crotons side by side then the differences, whatever they may be, would become apparent...
     
  14. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    So we do know: 1. that Col BB was around a long time before the Dutch hybridized Wilma (probably short for Wihelmina, Queen of the Nederlands or someone's girl friend). We still have not established if and when Wilma was introduced to the US.
    2. that in the absence of at least one Col BB or Wilma with impeccable provenance to establish a 'standard' , we still don't know crap.
    3. growing one next to the other without definetely knowing which is which, still leaves us where we are with two nice crotons that look so much alike no one can yet tell the difference. ...and since we're dealing with crotons, one of each is a small sample given the variability within each plant.

    Are we having fun yet?
     
  15. palmisland

    palmisland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,258
    Location:
    West Boca Raton 10b
    I have a few of both & there is a slight difference in leaf shape & color. Slight. The left bought as a Wilma. The center ID'd as Col Bob Bullock & the right one given to me as Barbara Bush:confused: I'll try to take better comparison photos tomorrow.

    Randy
     

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  16. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    Randy, that third photo looks the most like Wilma to my untrained eye...
    Whatever it is it sure is a beauty!
     
  17. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    I'd say the leaves are more than similar as the shape and color are hard to distinguish in the two provided catalogue images. Yes, two plants side by side would be the telling tale.

    Jeff, could you please post some photos of the other BB you have in the garden?

    I called Bob Alonzo about this last night and he mentioned that Bob Bullock has splotched hot pink which can overtake the entire mature leaf and no real veining. That would be what I see in the rightmost photo Randy posted.
     
  18. koki

    koki Active Member

    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    pine island, fl
    Is it possible they are all the same plant, first named in Florida for a war hero, then patented in Aussie for a girlfriend, meanwhile coined by a die-hard republican along the way?
     
  19. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    ...and here's what one of these mystery plants looks like today.
     

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  20. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Toby, you could be on to something.
     
  21. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    I don't think so, as Wilma is a documented seedling from 1992, whereas Colonel Bob Bullock has been around a lot longer.
    Some history on Colonel Bob Bullock would be interesting to know, if it was a seedling (parents?) or a sport (of what?)...
    I would assume that Wilma was also patented in Europe and other potential markets, not just Australia.
     
  22. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    I would not take the Aussie catalogue as gospel when it comes to a variable plant like this. The isometric view within the New Zealand image looks like Randy's second photo. My guess all three of Randy's photos are the same plant in different light conditions. My plant has taken on all three appearances depending on the time of year and light being received.
     
  23. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    For the Journal to be wrong, the breeder would have to be lying about the plant being a seedling, but I guess anything is possible...
    even a new seedling could duplicate a previous cultivar though the odds would seem long.

    The New Zealand watercolor and Randy's second photo are both supposed to be the same cultivar, so maybe that confirms Randy's plant, esoecially considering that the painting was done 22 years before Wilma germinated.

    Which brings us back to growing two plants side by side in the same light conditions for comparison...
    I'll volunteer to do the side by side growing if Randy will send me a cutting of each plant, especially that third pink one ;)
    :)
     
  24. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    All I can add is, I'm bringing over my C.B.B. and we'll all compare it to this "Wilma" looking plant and see what Bob says. One way or another, December 11th will be the FINAL day for one of these crotons.( !!!):confused:
     
  25. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    As long as I see two different names on what is basically the same plant, the breeders validity is in question. I was ready to concede that all these plants are Wilma until the New Zealand watercolor appeared. The Aussies didn't lie per se just maybe "borrowed' someone elses work. If I seem a tad bit cynical, you're right.
     
  26. koki

    koki Active Member

    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    pine island, fl
    Iceton and Petra have been around a long time. Their inherently unique qualities make them intriguing contenders as parent plants. It wouldn't suprise me one bit if the early hybridizers dappled with both. I recognize there is a high level of variability in seedlings, nevertheless there also seems to be certain genetic patterns that happen more frequently. An example would be the general consistency in croton sports. If we were able to test and identify genetic patterns independently from growing conditions, we'd really be cooking with fire. Unfortunatly I wouldn't know step one.
     
  27. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    I think Petra was developed in the 1970's, so the early croton crossers would not have had that one...

    Genetic fingerprinting would be a great tool for sorting out croton varieties, but if the cultivar 'Gangasetty' is typical then it may be a difficult challenge - researchers found at least a dozen different chromosome counts randomly distributed in cells from a single root tip:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=56...&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=codiaeum&f=false

    And then there is the cost factor of genetic testing which probably makes it unfeasible for our little hobby, unless it could be done in the kitchen:
    http://www.google.com/search?source...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=8ac6b4cea9b27ecb

    http://www.google.com/search?source...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=8ac6b4cea9b27ecb
     
  28. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Hmmm...if we actually got a foothold on what this plant does, it might not be as enjoyable. I personally like the unpredictability.
     
  29. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    Understanding what the plant does is one thing; getting it to do what one wants it to do is another. Unless someone writes a book like Plant Genetetics for Idiots, we're stuck with the instability. Anyone looking for a challenge for their doctoral dissertation?

    onward through the fog...
     
  30. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    Me too, and I doubt that will ever change...
    I also love the way these crotons are such chameleons - changing appearance under different environments and different times of the year...
     
  31. keith

    keith Active Member

    Messages:
    148
    koki is right about some genetic patterns that happen more frequently. I plant
    hundreds of seed, and some of the seedlings look a lot like known hybrids. I had a
    croton I loved, but lost years ago, I now have a seedling that looks like its twin.
     
  32. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Keith, this could mean we have Colonel Wilma Bullock.
     
  33. Borgy230

    Borgy230 Active Member

    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Miami Beach
    East Coast 1 West Coast 0
     
  34. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    LOL...I'm still not convinced. My plant looks better and with much bigger leaves than the little leaf Wilma that Jeff brought. Randy agreed that his plants didn't really look like Jeff's Wilma. I looked at mine and it resembles the real Bob Bullock not Wilma.
     
  35. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA

    HEY, WHOA....that wasn't my little leaf Wilma plant that was there. I don't know who's it was or who brought it, but it wasn't me. I only brought the Colonel Bob Bullock, the REAL DEAL.:)
     
  36. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Ok sorry not yours but you've got to admit it was a bad example anyway.
     
  37. palmisland

    palmisland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,258
    Location:
    West Boca Raton 10b
    I admit, I brought it. I found 3 at a nursery in Loxahatchee, a few weeks ago. They were sitting in full sun. I planted one in broken sun, one in the shade & brought the other one for the auction. A little TLC is needed:D



    Randy
     
  38. Judy Glock

    Judy Glock Active Member

    Messages:
    124
    Randy!
    I bought your Wilma and plan to take very good care of it! I just wish the nurseries around here had a better selection. I brought all of our crotons that were in the shade house inside the garden garage to spend the next few nights. We are supposed to get down to 30--31!

    Judy
     
  39. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Ray - if you got to the Holiday Social on time,or at least was only 1 hour late.you would have heard Bob Alonso emphatically ID The Colonel Bob Bullock that Jeff had as the real deal. The Wilma that Randy brought and was gracious enough to donate for the auction was indentified as the same without hesitation. The Wilma I got from Marie Nock is a dead ringer to the plant that Randy brought.

    In my opinion, I believe this controversy has been resolved. :)
     
  40. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Well, it's great to hear YOUR opinion Ron. My plant looks more like what Jeff brought than Randy's plant.
     

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