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Update on CPS - Collapsing Petiole Syndrome

Discussion in 'PALM TREES - WHERE TROPICAL STARTS' started by Dypsisdean, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Eleven months ago I started a topic on this palm that had collapsing petioles HERE.

    MattyB suggested it may just be lack of water, even though that seemed unlikely at the time. But I think he may be right. I tried watering more, and the palm has had a chance to expand it's root system. In any event, it seems to be OK now. No more collapsing petioles. You can even look closely and see the last remaining collapsed petiole hanging on, partially trimmed. No more since that last one. :)
     

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  2. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    I guess that's what happens when you live on the dry side of the Island.....
     
  3. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Well it certainly wouldn't be a suspected cause on the other side. I think they got over 10 inches the last two days, and it's still coming down. :)

    Seriously, I think it may have been an issue with this palm only, as the location may have had a lot of rock fill, with no soil or organic matter at all. So what was an adequate amount of irrigation for everything else, may not have been enough until the root system got large enough to tap into deeper water.
     
  4. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    How much additional soil/compost/etc. do you have to supply to support palms when planting on the lava flows?
     
  5. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    I am on a very old flow, so I have enough organic material, and the lava is broken down enough that I don't need any.

    However, on the newer flows the growers (homeowners) actually bring in vast quantities of soil to even out the terrain, and to provide a more plantable environment. In addition, huge machines can break up the lava as they clear areas for planting and building, providing a better and more even landscape ready area.

    When the pad was prepared for my house they encountered what is known as "blue rock' - a very dense lave as dense or denser than granite. They had to break it up and push it out to the sides while leveling it. I think I have a few areas that is exclusively this type of non-porous rubble, not very conducive for young plants to get a foot hold.
     
  6. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    I am on a very old flow, so I have enough organic material, and the lava is broken down enough that I don't need any additives.

    However, on the newer flows the growers (homeowners) actually bring in vast quantities of soil to even out the terrain, and to provide a more plantable environment. In addition, huge machines can break up the lava as they clear areas for planting and building, providing a better and more even landscape ready area.

    When the pad was prepared for my house they encountered what is known as "blue rock' - a very dense lava, as dense or denser than granite. They had to break it up and push it out to the sides while leveling it. I think I have a few areas that is exclusively this type of non-porous rubble, not very conducive for young plants to get a foot hold.
     
  7. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    Hmmmm. Good news. My Howeas have not experienced a collapsed petiole either, since potting up and making sure they stay moist.
     
  8. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Yeah Matty,

    You deserve some credit for apparently coming up with the right cause. You're definitely smarter than you look. :)
     
  9. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    Thanks for the compliment, I think.

    On a similar subject, possibly, are your Neoveitchias sustaining more healthy leaves now? I thought that was water related too.
     
  10. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Matty,

    Nope, even worse. But you may be right there as well. Someone told me to add Dolomite, so I did. But then found out they aren't growing near the beach in Vanuatu, but in acid soils more inland. Oops!

    Oh well. They get a ton of water, but they may be in rocky quick drying "soil" as well.
     
  11. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    Well, unless you've got rain like Bo those surface roots probably aren't going to sustain the palm. You've got a lot more experience than me and I'm sure your instincts are better, but I figured I'd throw out a suggestion on the long shot it works. I assume you've applied a heavy mulch layer around them. What about adding more soil? Can you get clay? Isn't diatamacious earth, ie cheap kitty litter clay? I know adding mulch and fill dirt heavy clay to some of my palms has helped them to stay moist even though they're planted on rocky soil. Like your blue rock, once you get down 12" at my place, palm roots will not penetrate the solid rock, so I have to rely on a shallow root system covered by heavy mulch.
    That said, I know you water thoroughly. And your place is dripping wet every morning with dew so it's not like it's dry by any means. Heck you've got Dictocarym lamarkianum looking saaaaweeett! How tropical are these? Could it be your cold? Dosen't seem likely. Who'd have thought we'd be trying to figure out how to keep a palm looking good in Hawaii?
     
  12. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    There has to be a missing piece to this puzzle. There is an older thread on PalmTalk about the same thing. I even hypothesized there that it could be root mealy bugs, but nobody followed up on that. And even at Bo and Jerry's the older leaves get that look, although not near as bad.

    I have another batch here that look better, so I don't think it's the climate. But I do think they get more water from run off there. And I noticed some at Bo's look better than others. So I'm betting on some nutrient. Now what it is, I'll probably never know. But I'm going to figure out a way to get them more water. It couldn't hurt.

    BTW - those Dictyocaryums are on similar "blue rock soil."
     
  13. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    So where are they from, Vanuatu? I wonder what metals and or minerals are in their native soil? Just import a couple of yards of soil from Vanuatu. Problem solved. No charge from me.
     
  14. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Are you up for it???

    I think we need a fact finding mission. How many wheelbarrows can you check in these days. :)
     
  15. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    I'll look into it.
     

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