Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by Borgy230, Jul 21, 2009.
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Is there somewhere specific we should post photos?
I think it really matters on the subject in question. If you have a nice picture of some recent airlayers or some cuttings you did, put them under the thread that I started regarding this.
Of course, anytime you want to start your own topic, just throw your pictures up there.Pretty flexable.
well for instance I want to show off this amazing Prince of Orange someone gave me as a christmas present!
There are actually two places that photos can be uploaded to. For simple forum discussions and sharing misc. stuff, what you did is fine - although you could start a new topic to separate out different thoughts.
If you have a photo of a specific species you wish to submit a Hi-Res photo of for use in the Croton Gallery, there is another place to do so. These are uploaded through the wiki (The Croton Society Page), and the instructions to do so can be read (also a video tutorial) in the "help" section available in the left side bar of a wiki page. Here's a link - HELP
If you provide the name, someone will make a page and insert the photo, if you are unable to. It is a little tricky at first, so just concern yourself with the upload at first. Then you can learn how to actually insert it. It's very easy - but one step at a time.
Since the photo you posted is so nice, I will upload it to the Gallery and name it as such. Thanks.
Thanks Rob and Dean! Prince of Orange is a hot one! You know you are sick if a Christmas present is a croton! Gotta love it.
Now THAT's the Cat's Meow!! I bet that's going to look real nice as it gets bigger.
Looks a lot like the 'Hot & Steamy' from ..?.. estate I got at the last meeting. Whose estate? Memory does not improve with age...
When posting pics, it helps immensely if there is something in the photo to lend some sense of scale (ruler, a hand, foot) so we know if we're looking at 6" leaves of 16" leaves.
The Hot and Steamy is a name I put on a croton from the Richard Krukonis garden. The only one that hasn't seen it yet and that possibly could say wheather or not if it already has a name or not, is Bob Alonzo. And he says he will be by later this summer.
The Prince of Orange came out of the Bob Halgrim garden just after he passed away a few years ago. This was a plant that Bob Alonzo put the name to. And if you were to see them side by side, they really are totally different.
And I agree, it would be nice to add some sort of scale to these plants, it's hard enough sometimes pinning a name down.
Boy.....have some people come a long way or what? Lol!
Be very, very careful where you post a picture. The CEO of Palmpedia doesn't like them except in designated areas. You could get a nastygram and that would be the end of it! Warning! Warning! Warning, Will Robinson, mean-spirited people are always lurking nearby!!!
I seeing a serious problem here with this small group of Croton heads. Now the problem is always and again with the colorful names that seem to be known to the few on this forum. Heres what im saying, There are many people in the world like ourselfs that love to put a name on there Hybrids. So again with no reference point Like the actual Hybridizer or Orginal Location of where it came from how can it be legit. The Croton naming process is getting almost out of control, with multible names per croton. How does the average collector know what you say is what it is being the nursery down the street swears its another. Only way i can see to maybe just maybe fix these errors is for someone with a little money to write another book. Just because of the so so many Unidenified Hybrids must have a name in most peoples eyes. I noticed many collectors dont collect for the beauty, they collect for the colorful name some fella is calling it.
I also know many here say come to the Croton Society page for references. But in my dealings with 100's in the past of Emails there are many dont approve of the Croton Society and go about creating there own names as well. All i can say from weighing out this constant debate over names is a Book or Catalogue with some sort of reference area to legitimize there colorful names.
I also noticed mostly the large collectors want to be known as Croton ID experts. Im only saying without a legit answer to anyones questions such as, Who Hybridized this Croton or whats the host Plants or even where did originate then at the end of the day its just another unnamed hybrid.
But if a colorful name on a croton helps generate sales then I guess thats business even if its wrong. Speaking for myself I been fooling around with Crotons for well over 10yrs now, and still cant get a positive ID on the majority of the plants I Had. Maybe this is why i use a few books I have with documented Pictures to compare, Frank Browns Book, Exotica, and Reasoners List they sent me many years back. All others are still UnNamed till I myself see a solid reference to any plant that dont look familiar.
Sorry for my grammar im on medication
Many people will put a name on a croton until a legitimate name comes along. You have to. Are you just going to call it #38 or # 178 on a plant for a name? And then, every so often when many of us get together at one time and look a peticular croton, it's then that "we" will decide if it's already been named or not. And at the end of the day, many times we all go home and never decided on one name after all.
So...if a plant out of the RK garden that was collected many years ago never had a name ( almost all of the crotons in RK Garden were never named), then why shouldn't a name be put on it? Because if someone's going to start propagating it, and spreading it around, don't you think it deserves a name, a name that everyone should use?
Your to hung up on any croton that dosen't have a name that YOUR familiar with, that it can't or shouldn't have a name on it then. Well, guess what, wrong. And all the seedlings that come along, guess what, people ARE going to put THEIR name on them and it will be perfectly correct.
And don't blame it on the med's. I know you all too well.......
I agree with Jeff. If no one can put a name on a certain croton, not even a close guess, then that person that collected has the right to put the name on it. And even more so if the place it came from has no interest in naming it.
We dont need a picture of the hybridizer with the seedling ect or have it published in a book. Especially if a plant is going into the trade, it has to have a name! people wont be too excited about buying a #104 or 285#.
Also, many crotons come up on accident in the garden, so who knows what the parent plants are! and can you call someone a hybridizer if they just select a random seedling in the garden that shows good color, and begin to propigate it?
Ok The hybridizer from long ago didnt name it, So now the Modern day collector will? is that what your saying. Also now im really confused, so its ok to have 7 to 8 completly different names per plant? Because this small group calls it one thing where the rest of the world call it something else. I been preaching this long time now, Thats why in Frank Brown Book and others they call them Unnamed Hybrids they did that for a reason.
Bottom line is this i suppose, there is no need to identify crotons because the names are all made up. People change them like there clothes.
Imagine this with palms also, Christmas Palm called a Foxtail its still wrong.
Have you ever thought why there isnt more information out on Crotons? Like there is on almost all other Flowers, Plants, Trees out there? Answer: Because there isnt, Biologically impossible just like a mutt dog has no name only Mutt.
Very few people are really obsessed about having a name, I can understand that. Imagine if everyone had that obsession the world would be upside down.
About what im hung up on, Well im just trying to right the wrong. Im about the history and the hybridizer, Colors and leaf shapes. Names will never be correct way to many Experts and self proclaimed IDer's.
Who would be better to write an updated Croton ID Book more than our very own Croton Guru?
Who is our Croton Guru?
we need someone who knows the names of the new varieties.
There is no new names on new Varieties, Not when you have everyone in the State of Florida calling it everything under the sun, geez.
Again that where the word obsessed comes in, Not when they look alike and OMG its needs a name lol to funny.
Collecting Crotons is not about who has 400 Misnamed crotons, its about the Varieties, Colors, Leaf shapes. Names is something your going to have to live without.
Or take a tip from the Biggest collector there was John Bender, When asked whats that name john! he replied, It has no name just a handsome Croton.
I suppose he didnt want to misname it being so many do.
From Crotonologist, I dont know what this is but sounds interesting.
Ultimately, crotons need a Codiaeum registry, i.e. an International Cultivar Registration Authority (ICRA):
Cultivars of genera without an ICRA, like Codiaeum, can be registered here:
but I think crotons really need their own registry..
I see you are starting the book already ...
Was a idea many years ago, But theres no money in it. Website was better many years ago, Ask yourself this how did some of these Huge collectors today where did they get most of there Crotons from.
Yep yours truly, That was long ago when i lived, slept and ate crotons. I dont see anyone with the obsession i had for them. LOL i even had my License plate on my vehicle say "Croton" now thats bad.
Anyways I see this is a no win deal, Some just dont want to be educated.
How are there no new names on new varieties? I believe there are.
Keith Hanks has Cleopatra, Cameo; Jeff Searle has a whole list of new crotons. Just because you are not familar with the croton doesnt mean the name isnt correct of valid.
y Im only saying you know this as well as I do. Without no reference point to verify a name its still a Unnamed Hybrid. Problem in a nut shell is everywhere you go (Nurserys) there are many names per plant. I myself dont think its right. So if Jeff is calling it one thing doesnt mean its correct. Only a few do, not the Majority.
I completely disagree with you. Just because a name is not in a book or some type of published catalog does not mean it isnt valid.
If someone puts a name on a variety that had no name before, and was even brought before the entire croton society to be identified and no one could, then that person very much has the right to put a name on it. Theres a huge difference between renaming a variety and putting a new name on a variety that is unknown to anyone.
ok i see what your saying now, Only the small amount of people even interested in the Croton Society know or will Know the name of a Unidentified croton. I got lots of Emails just on this subject Croton Society memebers making names up as they go. Its just simply Wrong, But thats how it goes i guess.
Funny thing is this, I have a Frank Browns Book. I have no more room on the pages for name cross outs. That alone speaks volumes, Be happy and call it what it is Unnamed Hybrid like all the experts do. I seen it in black and white.
are you one of those self proclaimed experts, calling it a Unnamed Hybrid???
Do you understand the meaning of the word "un-named" it means without a name, nameless. Thus, it needs a name.
And no, I am not saying only members of the Croton Society can identify a plant or may know the name of it. However if the LARGE amount of people that are highly interested in the Croton Society are not able to put a name on a specific plant, I think its fair to say that plant is "un-named" and thus needs a name.
That you have no more room on pages for cross outs is maybe your own doing, perhaps you write too big. or maybe get a second book if your that confused.
Come on Ricky.
I was only suggesting that when posting photos in the Forum that we would all like to also see indexed in the Encyclopedia, it would be a real time saver for the originator to upload them to both locations at the same time.
There are many photos in the forum that are buried in posts that would be useful to have in the Encyclopedia. But because it is so laborious to transfer them, it may never happen. But if uploaded directly to the wiki at the same time, with an appropriate file name, anyone can get them to the proper pages with very little effort.
IMO, it would be a shame not to make full use of Ricky's excellent photography - he has a real knack, and some excellent specimens. My suggestion was intended as a method to assure they would all make it to the Encyclopedia. It was also intended as a general suggestion and notice for everyone to make note of.
For those of you who may have missed my suggestion. First drag a copy of any "Encyclopedia Grade" photos that you upload to the forum to a separate folder. Then when you have ten that would be of use in the Encyclopedia, you can upload them all at once to the wiki at your convenience, and with very little effort - much less effort than uploading to the forum. You can even rename them on the fly so anyone can easily ID them and place them on the proper pages if you do not care to.
Give it a try. Use the "Upload Multiple Files" option in the left sidebar of any wiki page if you have ten photos you would like to see in the Encyclopedia.
I have nothing to add other than this:
A croton by any other name is still a croton.
The ironic thing is that the name croton is a misnomer as well ...
Lets start a movement to strike the name croton and come up with a better sounding and marketable name for the plant. (joking of course).
These days I dont know of any experts (There to old to remember) only collectors. Am I a Expert hmm some say I am, I tend to disagree. I am Extremly knowledgeable about the History and Locations of Crotons. I didnt have the Number 1 website on Crotons for nothing.
But if you prefer to have a yard or Garden full of colorful names that are wrong so be it.
Bottom line is this, you cant name them all unless you legitimize them, and having a handful of guys saying it is, isnt a legit way not on this planet.
I know its hard to accept but like i said before a Mutt is still a Mutt at the end of the day.
My suggestion would be to keep track (in the Encyclopedia) of all the AKAs of various crotons. Anytime someone believes a particular croton has an AKA, that name could be added to an AKA section on that Encyclopedia page. Then at any point in the future, a discussion could be started about the "proper" name for that cultivar - after which a poll could be taken to nominate what the majority of the CrotonHeads think should be the accepted name.
After all, shouldn't it be the collective wisdom and opinions of the learned CrotonHead here to make a final determination of an accepted name?
And of course, this would always be subject to refinement. But IMO, some method of sorting things out needs to be adopted, or else things will never improve.
Dean - you may want to delete the entire wiki croton photo gallery. According to the Croton Guru, none of the names are valid and all need to be reclassified as Unnamed hybrids?
so Dave, then if a Mutt is a Mutt, lets drop every single name on crotons, and we will have no names, is that what your saying? And whos to say the names are wrong, your the only one?
I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people here and in the croton society or interested in crotons in general will disagree with you.
I agree with Dean completely that is is the collective wisdom that should make the final determination of an accepted name. We are Democratic, not Communist.
Sounds good but dont think its the answer, To many names floating around even on the common plants. Every garden, nursery, collector has so many names its just seems to be unfixable. And the few books published are not to reliable either. Look at Exotica and Franks book i see despute there also, Even John Bender had no clue and refused to accept most names.
Some people just have to get it through there head making up a name dont cut it. Thats a huge reason why Ralph Davis didnt do it way back when.
Bottom line is Crotons are Hybrids and with 1000's out there that look like the other, Its a no win. Lets all accept that and move on.
I see you didnt read the earlier posts, Colorful made up names with no verification other than your imagination dont cut it. If the book is wrong so what, least its in black and white and the World sees it not the handful here.
Ill take a pound what your smoking Didnt read the earlier posts either? Unnamed Hybrids are in published books, not only in MooseLand. Not to be a smart A... but if something anything has no reference point then its up for debate that no one will win. Im only talking about the names No one has ever heard of but the few on this Forum.
Many people out there that have crotons have never heard about the names of their plants. I met a man in his 90s that has had some of the plants for over 40 years, and he had no idea what the names were, and that has nothing to do with his age as he never knew the name!
I did read all posts, you clearly said a mutt is a mutt, and your saying a un-named croton should remain un-named simply because its not in a book. Why do the names of the earlier crotons stick and are acceptable to you, because they are only in a book? You are completely and absolutely wrong about the naming of crotons. If someone finds a new palm tree that no one can identify, is it supposed to remain un-named for ever? Your thinking sir makes no sense.
Virtually everything in life is a hybrid, you are a hybrid from your parents. so perhaps we should change your name to Un-named person 1,483,198,543
take a breath, re-read your posts and think what your saying.
Giving something a name has multiple purposes, mainly making it easier to identify and to market. Obviously if it has a name, it will be easier to identify for others, thus making it less likely to having confused people that will get torn apart by the variety of names.
Ok you win Next thing you need to do is Patent it, Register it just like everyone else does to make what they say legit. Dreaming up names with no reference is absurd. End of discussion and BTW good luck with that. Further more that is the reason for all the errors with Crotons lets fix the problem not add to it, Mr. y
I'll just repeat my last closing comment.
"But IMO, some method of sorting things out needs to be adopted, or else things will never improve."
So I proposed a method. Do you have one that's better? I would think that if a majority of "Croton Experts" could agree on a legitimate name (a feat in itself), that could begin a process that may begin sort things out. And there's no better place to do it than online, right here. Otherwise, things will only get worse, and that's really saying something.
Now it's probable some definitive agreement would not be forthcoming on many of these. But if even a few could be agreed on, through some type of acceptable process, it would set the foundation for a format of some kind. In other words, a "Croton Court."
"Your Honor, I submit the following evidence and witnesses proving that the true identity of Exhibit #1 is 'Fantasy.'
"Has the jury reached a verdict?"
"Yes your Honor, we CrotonHeads of the Croton Society have been polled and found by a vote of 10 to 2 to adopt the "Fantasy" name for the pictured croton.
"Sorry your Honor, at this time the vote is split and inconclusive. Further discussion is needed."
Maybe But if the Croton Society agrees on a name what about the rest of the world? That would only satisfy this small group here. I think the problem is much bigger, If people would just agree on there is no legit name then all maybe will follow. Most if not all in the World follow Frank Browns book to the letter. That being because theres only 1 book, Most nurserys follow it as well. Now only the Nursery owners claim a name only to boost sales, Noone will buy a plant called Unknown, So the Nursery owners call it something like "Summer Breeze" for example. Thats Just wrong. There is a process that needs to be followed, Its called Patent the Name. Not a bunch of CrotonHeads with colorful Imaginations Misnaming Crotons, Like so many do.
Maybe if people agree that there is a specific name for the croton variety, then others will follow.
So since most of the crotons in the book are not patented, we should through out the names.
Creating a Patent does not guarantee the name is correct, you really have zero knowledge of this subject and have little exposure to correctly naming a plant.
your welcome to preach your theory Mr. Self proclaimed Croton Guru, but it is wrong. and makes no sense. You have yet to even successfully argue your side of the debate.
What part of a Reference point dont you understand? BOOK, PATENT. you seem to have some issues with Facts. So far you stated none.
Google the word facts and reference, And remember what you read.
TIP OF THE DAY: Lack of schooling in no excuse.
Your last post was not very nice. I don't think you would appreciate such comments directed at you.
Lets post comments with courtesy in mind please!!!
Separate names with a comma.