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Palms and Heels

Discussion in 'PALM TREES - WHERE TROPICAL STARTS' started by Dypsisdean, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    The thread going on over HERE got me thinking.

    The question was asked about variability in palms, and extended to the variability in forming heels. And whether the ability to form a heel was a unique characteristic of a species. That is, whether it was a defining characteristic of a species. In other words, could a palm the has a heel be the same species as one that doesn't.

    Well my curiosity extended a little farther in that is it possible that some identical palms would form a large heel sometimes and a small heel sometimes depending on the growing conditions. Most think that the heel is to "push" a palm lower in order to anchor it better. But what if the palm "felt" that it was deep enough already, would it refrain from making a heel, or only push to the side and make a heel that may not even be noticed as a heel?

    Anyway - just wondering if that could explain why there is disagreement from time to time about my "such and such" has a heel and yours doesn't, so they can't be the same. Could it be just variation in the size and noticeability of the heel, created by a different set of growing conditions?
     
  2. palmnerd

    palmnerd Well-Known Member

    Hi Dean,
    I agree with you with regard to varying growing conditions creating heels in some or most cases. I've noticed from my growing experience, that if a particular plant is struggling and growing outside of its ideal conditions that the lack of vigorous growth will produce a stunted trunk or perhaps a heel. I have seen this in several species in my collection. Especially the earliest of my plantings or misplantings. I wasn't keen on good depth of planting early on in my hobby, say about twelve to fifteen years ago. Some of these early palms are very stunted with unusual trunking. I have also seen more pronounced remote cotyledons from palms not in their comfort zones.
     
  3. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    Outside of descriptions in text, is there a resource that has photos of heels, which genera are likely to produce them, etc.

    Actual photos would be better than drawings, of course, but we are dealing in pure botany here.....:)
     
  4. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    John,

    Not off hand - but it would be nice to have some photos and/or more info for the Glossary - which by the way could use a volunteer or two.
     
  5. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    4,816
    Here are pictures of Sabal uresana. Both palms are the same age and growing in the same conditions just a few feet from each other. The uresana in pic #1 has no heel, uresana in pic#2 showing heel.
     

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  6. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    Hint,hint?
     
  7. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    Are we building a glossary here or the full encyclopedia?
     
  8. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Both - There's been a Glossary since day one, 2 1/2 years ago. But as you have illustrated, not everyone knows that. If you look on the Main Page, at the bottom, there is the link to the Glossary. What's nice is that any terms that are used in wiki pages/articles can be easily linked to the definitions when a technical term like "rachis" is used. If the reader doesn't know the meaning, they can click on the word for a definition and photos if that term has been added to the Glossary.

    As with everything here, it is a group effort. Anyone wishing to add terms to the Glossary, or anything else is welcome - just like Wikipedia.
     
  9. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    We need to get Keith over here. This is exactly the kind of thing he wants, based on his disappointment with GPII.

    That LA (Louisiana for you who do not know him) outlook is beneficial as well.....

    just emailed him..
     
  10. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    "Disappointment with GPII????????"

    I would like to hear more and why.
     
  11. LJG

    LJG Active Member

    Messages:
    425
    My issue with GPII is why do you not list all species? I know it is not called GSII, but still.....
     
  12. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    He made it pretty clear that it was too technical for him. I think that he was looking for species information in the book, rather than the scientific work that it was. It is in a thread in PalmTalk, I haven't been able to find his post but I remember it becasue it surprised me.
     
  13. Dave from So-Cal

    Dave from So-Cal Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,070
    Damn, I've been called a heel, but never a palm . . .
     

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