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Offer Help With Correcting Names Here

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by Dypsisdean, Sep 22, 2010.

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  1. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Most of you are more comfortable offering help to straighten out all the naming discrepancies here in an ongoing discussion.

    So Bren asked for a dedicated topic were all the ideas, suggestions, and info regarding the confusion of names can be placed. So here it is.
     
  2. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,736
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Ha,ha,ha! Crotons were first identified and named about 350 years ago, so what makes you think were going to work out the "kinks" now?:) That's what so fun about this unique group of plants. Not to mention the challenge.....


    Jeff
     
  3. junglegal

    junglegal Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    3,133
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    OK, never mind, WTF was I thinking to hell with the name list :confused::mad::rolleyes:
     
  4. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    I assumed the idea was not to positively identify each and every croton to a certainty, but to at least get spellings correct and to have an idea of what varieties may be easily confused with others, or in fact have multiple names.

    Any less confusion would be positive in my book. And it isn't going to improve without any effort.

    And Jeff, it doesn't appear to me as if there is any danger of taking the "fun" out of it anytime soon. :)
     
  5. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    WTF = Where's the fonts? :rolleyes:

    LOL Moose :)
     
  6. Plant Nut

    Plant Nut Active Member

    Messages:
    114
    Dean:
    I didn't think you were referring to the naming of crotons 350 yrs. ago. In recent years, some people, not knowing the name of a croton, made up their own name. That is a fact! Even Junglegal, a new croton collector, buyer realized that the same croton could have multiple names. Frank Brown did a great job with his books but, I understand even there, a few mistakes were made. In time, with this forum, corrections will be made. Thank-you so much for all you have done.
     
  7. junglegal

    junglegal Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    3,133
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    I know there will always be mysteries and unknowns with these names but we can at least record what is known in the wiki. This thread was intended to be one spot where folks could mention a name addition,typo, picture problem etc. while the name list is initially getting underway. Randy you are dead on, the trade names being used may not be correct but they deserve a page in the wiki to redirect folks to the correct ID.
    Oh and Ron, WTF stands for 'what the fudge' ;)
     
  8. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Relax grasshopper, these are cultivars that are named. The binomial botanical naming rules do not apply. Just like the common names of palms that causes confusion. :p
     
  9. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Should there be a section on each page for AKAs, or CBCs (Can Be Confused with)? Or would the lists become too long? :)
     
  10. Sihara

    Sihara Active Member

    Messages:
    69
    I think this is a great idea, what with "new" names being tacked onto cultivars with established names! Even worse is when the "new" name is actually the name of totally different cultivar.

    Case in point, a local nursery that's been selling Eleanor Roosevelt as Sloppy Painter. Or the local big box store - they've got "Fiestas" that look more like Twist & Point. I should ask Ray if he's seen this - I'm sure they got this wrong.

    Another nursery got a mislabeled croton from a S. FL grower. The grower tagged it as AFD 7, which it clearly wasn't. I brought to a croton auction, where it was correctly ID'd by an expert, who said it was Gloriosum Superbum (did I spell that right?)



    Then there are crotons with a number of names, like Piecrust. Or AFD 5, a/k/a Fantasy a/k/a "Karen."
     
  11. Croton Guru

    Croton Guru Banned

    Messages:
    181
    Location:
    SouthFlorida
    Hello Everyone, Some of you may know me from the web site I had some time ago Croton Mania. Well its no longer available, but a new one is in the works now. A brief summary on the new Croton site has lots to do with Correctly naming these unnamed Hybrids. This seems to be a huge problem with croton collectors Misnaming crotons. We now have 1 reference point to identify Crotons and thats Frank Browns Book on Crotons of the world. There seems to be many new varieties being shown with some names most of us never heard of. The problem seems to be that all the unnamed Hybrids are getting colorful names by people that stumble across them. What i propose to do is have a web site with your unnamed Hybrid and you as the owner may name your hybrid. With of course a Photo and a description of how and when you obtained it. Hopefully this will clear up alot of the bogus names floating around. In a nut shell this new site will be doing is giving all of us a reference point, being there is none at the point. So in the very near future ill be asking the croton collectors if they would like there plant published so we all can enjoy them with a legitimate name on file. Thanks any input would be greatly appreciated on this subject.
     
  12. Borgy230

    Borgy230 Active Member

    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Miami Beach
    I think this or the croton society site is the area for Legitimate names???
     
  13. Croton Guru

    Croton Guru Banned

    Messages:
    181
    Location:
    SouthFlorida
    I thought about that but you must understand there are over 2000 varieties or more out there. Im offering this service (Web Site) because I have the want and desire Just like i did with my Croton Mania Site. Which did extremely well for itself, Being it was the only one on the Internet. :)
     
  14. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    Actually, there are rules that apply, as laid out in the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants:
    http://www.ishs.org/sci/icracpco.htm
    and common names are not the same thing as cultivar names...
    http://www.ishs.org/sci/icraname.htm

    Ultimately, crotons need a Codiaeum registry, i.e. an International Cultivar Registration Authority (ICRA):
    http://www.ishs.org/sci/icralist/icralist.htm
    Cultivars of genera without an ICRA, like Codiaeum, can be registered here:
    http://www.bbg.org/research/taxonomy/#/tabs-2
    but I think crotons really need their own registry...
     
  15. fawnridge

    fawnridge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,422
    Location:
    Western Boca Raton
    Dave - Your original Croton Mania website was the only useful authority outside of The Book. As good as this website is, the navigation is a bit weird. If you are resurrecting Croton Mania, it can only be a good thing as far as this plant is concerned.
     
  16. Croton Guru

    Croton Guru Banned

    Messages:
    181
    Location:
    SouthFlorida
    The main Heading of my new web site will be Crotons of the 21st Century Which will hold mostly unnamed hybrids collectors have named, as long as a decent photo and maybe a small comment on the surrounding plants and how they came upon it. Just making up a name without any kind of documentation cant be justified, I have gotten so many emails on this subject I thought i would try to fix this. Like I said as of now we have one reference point for Crotons and thats Frank Browns book that shows Photos and Hybridizers names. New Exotic crotons are appearing daily, This new web site will hold some of the names Croton Growers and collectors of Today are Raising.
     
  17. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    4,816
    I agree with Borgy. This is the site for Crotons now. The WIKI is set up for Legitimate names and unknowns.
     
  18. Croton Guru

    Croton Guru Banned

    Messages:
    181
    Location:
    SouthFlorida
    Thanks just wanted some input, But I will still create the site which will hold tons of information unlike the Wiki Site which i just visited. Unnamed hybrids must be at least 4 years old new seedlings 95% of the time grow up to be Green Croton colors dont hold. So with this said with out the web site up, I suppose seeing is believing when it comes to Crotons that Croton Mania Site will hold. Perfect example is this, Its been referred by many as the Frank Browns Croton Book of the Internet. The Wiki Site is a good site but really could have more information other than just photos. One more small note The old Croton Mania site starting as far back as 1700's With complete Bio's on the main Hybridizers of the early 30's and 40's.
     
  19. Croton Guru

    Croton Guru Banned

    Messages:
    181
    Location:
    SouthFlorida
    Fawn, Where you refering about the navigation on the Wiki Site? It seemed ok but many Photos didnt load. But overall was a good site for some nice Photos:) I tend to go into more information on like how that unnamed Hybrid came to be (Surrounding Plants).
     
  20. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Dave,

    Consider this:

    The wiki format is an extremely powerful platform, and is perfect for what you have in mind. I can't begin to explain the many reasons why. Just refer to Wikipedia to see what it can do. This software is exactly the same.

    The Palmpedia Wiki is offered to anyone to use as they care to. You are more than welcome to create your Crotonmania idea within the Wiki here as have several plant organizations and even individuals.

    You or I (if you need the help to get started), could create a "Dave Butler's Crotonmania" page in less than a minute. You are computer/web smart enough to see how The Croton Society just started with a opening page, and then the sky is the limit for adding on sections, indexes, etc. Most of the indexing, categorizing, etc. is done automatically on the fly. All without having to mess with the server or html, and with everything always saved with the ability to restore any previous page, in the event of errors.

    In addition, it's free to you. And it's a powerful dedicated server allowing larger Hi-Def photos, video, etc. But the best reason is that your photos, descriptions, etc. and those of The Croton Society could be easily linked to (even shared), and serve to compliment one another, thus providing more interest and information in one place.

    The reason we don't have much info on a lot of pages (only photos) is because the Crotonheads didn't get moving until recently. But in a short month, almost all you see was created by one person. And any errors you come across on the wiki, you (or anyone else) can correct/edit or add to. If only we could get some more help, we could have a Wikipedia of Crotons, with many from around the world helping.
     
  21. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    I agree. I think the wiki here has the potential to become a Codiaeum registry, an International Cultivar Registration Authority (ICRA) for Codiaeum recognized by the International Society for Horticultural Science http://www.ishs.org/sci/icra.htm which would then attract participation from other crotonheads around the world so that hybridizers, whether in Florida or Thailand, Australia, Europe or wherever would have a recognized site for registering their hybrids.

    I would be glad to help with the wiki.
    I've seen a number of nice photos in recent threads that have no wiki entry, so I'll be glad to help start adding entries when I can...
     
  22. fawnridge

    fawnridge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,422
    Location:
    Western Boca Raton
    Some suggestions to make the wiki better:
    1. Single button access from the Forum, not to the wiki main page, but directly to the Croton listing.
    2. Multiple pictures of each variety on one page. We all know how many Crotons will look different in the shade versus the sun. Splotching needs to be pictured. (I'm thinking of all the variations of Van Buren with these comments. Pinocchio is another one. I have 8 in the ground and they all look different in some respects, identical in others.)
    3. A list of all the different names each one has - i.e. Piecrust and Mortimer.
    4. Score - 1 to 5 , 1 to 10, how rare the variety is.

    Just some suggestions.

    One more, since The Book is out of print (yes? no?) can we get Dr. Brown's permission to scan all the correctly identified photos and put them in the wiki along with the existing pictures?
     
  23. fawnridge

    fawnridge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,422
    Location:
    Western Boca Raton
    One more thing, there are many names that you can click on without a photo. Can we get a filler photo - i.e. a gray box that says, "Photo Needed" or something like that. At least when you click on it you don't wonder if you've gone to the wrong page.
     
  24. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    A reply to some of the suggestions.

    - Re: A Direct Link --- If you click on the "Quick Links" in the main green tool bar, the last entry is a direct link to the Croton Wiki Site. That could easily be changed to the CrotonPedia Page if desired - but which one? Alphabetical, Leaf Shape, etc.

    - Re: Pages without photos --- Anyone can click on "Edit" and type in "Photo needed." Or paste in a template (see below).

    - What I have tried to do to the PalmPedia is keep a standard template. For example, when I make a new page I have the saved syntax for a page that has "Description," "Habitat," "Culture," etc. (See most any Palm Species Page) Then people can add any info they may have for each section - but the page has been started, and it guides people when they wish to add something. In addition, it is nice (but difficult) to have photos in a standard size and arrangement. For palms, I wish to ultimately have a pic of a mature plant, a juvenile, a seedling, and the seed. With Crotons it could be a pic of the new growth, medium growth, and old growth, plus a pic of a sun grown plant, and one in the shade. And if they were arranged in a standard manner, it would look very organized. In addition, if a better pic is ever available, they can easily be swapped out with little effort.

    I would suggest a template for Crotons that might include, "General Description and Origin" if known, "Culture" indicating exposure, hardiness, rate of growth, eventual size, and issues with pests, fertilizer, etc. And an "Easily Confused With" section that might suggest other names, or differentiating features with similar cultivars. If you guys work out a desired format, I'll create it. Then anyone can copy and paste it on a page and go from there.

    But my point is that a standardized "look" to a page looks more professional, and is more usable. And it is much easier to start off that way than going back and "fixing" everything later. It's a lot of work if think of it as a solo project. But with a little help from everyone, you will be amazed what could be accomplished.
     
  25. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    I think the "Master Name List" in the Online Reference could use small icons next to each name that would indicate whether or not there are photos available for that name reference, perhaps just a small camera icon to indicate photos are there.
    Otherwise one has to click on each name just to see if there is a photo which can be rather tedious...

    Another idea would be to have some sort of indicator to show that a reference has been updated or added recently, or perhaps the date it was last updated.
    I don't know if this is practical or not, just kind of thinking out loud here...
     
  26. palmisland

    palmisland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    West Boca Raton 10b
    Great idea adding some kind of photo indicater to the Master Name List pages. It's very time consuming trying to find photos.
     
  27. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,736
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    I definitely like the idea of maybe a camera icon, because last night I must of looked up 50 names and it IS quite time consuming to only find no picture there. After all.....this is the main reason for looking up a name, to see a picture. Get on it Dean! :)
     
  28. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Let me emphasize that any of you can initiate any of these suggestions you care to.

    You can find a camera icon and experiment with ways to place it next to the names. The idea of the Wiki is that any of you can do anything to wish. You can edit, you can add text, you can add photos, you can correct layout inconsistencies. You can do 99% of what I can do.

    Every page has an "Edit" button. Try clicking on it. You will see the edit window and what it looks like to create a page. It looks odd at first, but a simple examination and a little effort, and it's no more complicated than using the Forum. Remember how weird that seemed at first?

    Try experimenting with an unimportant page. Or click on the "Help" button to get some pointers in how it all works. But the main thing to remember is that when done adding or editing, you can either click on "preview" or "save." If you press on "preview" you will see what you have done, and then you can press save if you are happy with it. Even if you save and screw it all up, I can easily roll it back to what it looked like before you did anything. So you can't screw it up really. Don't let me hear the standard Searle cop out "I'm not good enough on computers to do any of that stuff." How can you get good with that kind of attitude? :)

    Having said all that, adding an icon is a little tricky. I will go ahead and try and set it up. I am not sure the software will allow an image in alphabetical listings. I don't think it will. But if I find a way, it will be up to you to add it to each individual name without a photo.
     
  29. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    4,816
    The Croton on line Reference Guide now has a * next to the name that needs a photo. Take a look if you have a good photo of that Croton please add it to the Reference Guide. Many are missing photos and your help is needed.
     
  30. junglegal

    junglegal Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    3,133
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    Pictures added for the following today: Carow, Challenger, Dr. Frank Brown, Fred Snaders, Multicolor, Reliance, White Anne Rutherford, Clipper, Aubrey Christian, Princess Eugenia, Yuletide, Czar Alexander, Robert Halgrim
     
  31. Crotonologist

    Crotonologist Active Member

    Messages:
    761
    Location:
    southern Louisiana USDA 9a
    How does one remove the asterisk?
     
  32. junglegal

    junglegal Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    3,133
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    I PM'd Scott to remove them when he has time. I'm not quite sure on the procedure myself.
     

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