Mrs. Fred Sanders/ Fred Sanders

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by annafl, Sep 1, 2014.

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  1. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    In Robert's recent thread about this plant he mentioned that at some time in the past Ray commented that Fred Sanders was originally Mrs. Fred Sanders. Ray went on to say that over time/use, the Mrs. was dropped and the cultivar has been called Fred Sanders. Now, Robert feels the croton should be called by its original Mrs. Fred Sanders if this is correct. Does anyone know anything about the history of this cultivar? Should it be entered in the wiki as Fred Sanders or Mrs. Fred Sanders? Should there be a mention that these are synonymous? Robert also says these names are synonymous with Earl of Derby. I also don't know anything about this either. Should the three go in as synonymous? I hope some of you can clarify this for me. I'm not sure a name change can be based on a comment Ray made years ago or can it?

    Robert, please correct me if I am wrong on any of the above accounts/comments. I prefer not to be the go-between in case I am mistaken about anything. Thanks, everyone.
     
  2. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    Anna, please click on MRS. FRED SANDERS in the “CROTON ALPHABETICAL NAMES” in the WIKI PHOTOS:

    MRS. FRED SANDERS* Synonym is Earl of Derby.This page was last modified 15:20, 5 August 2013 by Anna. Based on work by junglegalfla.

    A trilobed-leaved form of the Disraeli type, with nearly the whole central portion of the laf-blade yellow, the margin and tips of the lobes a grassy green. REF: Veitchs' Catlg. of Pl. 1878, p. 27.

    Type Q, 4" x 10", - Large oak leaf variety. Same colors as Philadelphia but much larger leaf. Ground color rich clear green. Midrib zone of lower part of leaf overlaid a deep rich clear yellow sometimes spreading over most of the leaf. REF: Paper prepared by Wm. A. Geiger in collaboration with Mr. Christian of the Christian Nursery, Mr. Van der Lean and Mr. George L. Peacock. p.12.

    Large Oak leaf, center and lobes splotched brilliant yellow. REF: Reasoner's Tropical Nurseries inc, croton listing. Group 1, Common Varieties, p.2.

    NOTE: Several other members, not only Ray, have used “MRS. FRED SANDERS” when referring to this variety.

    First of all I am not a CROTON EXPERT, far from it but it sure sounds to me that the aforementioned refs: are describing the photographs that I submitted as Mrs. Fred Sanders in Costa Rican Croton gardens. If they are not, I sincerely apologize for my error and throw myself on the mercy of the court. :) :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  3. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
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    Ana, I'm not quite sure myself, only that in Frank Brown's second book, it's labeled as Fred Sanders. As far as Earl of Derby, my plant in not the same as Fred Sanders and I can't remember the background on where I got it, but I keep my two plants apart.
     
  4. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member


    Robert, when I click on Mrs. Fred Sanders, I see that the only two people who have worked on this page are Bren and I. This website names the people who edit it automatically. My contribution to this page was only to change the settings to make it conform to the rest of the wiki. This needs to be done for every existing page every time the wiki settings are changed. I did not change anything Bren entered as content years ago when she was a newbie. I have not seen any other reference by any other more reliable source, to Earl of Derby being a synonym of Fred Sanders or Mrs. Fred Sanders. Correct me if you have, please.

    Who besides Ray has mentioned Fred Sanders being the same as Mrs. Fred Sanders? Anyone that frequents the forum now? Maybe we can ask them what they know about this. It may help us clear up some of the confusion here.

    I would like to enter the photos under the name Fred Sanders, but I think we need confirmation on whether it truly is a synonym for Mrs. Fred Sanders before I include it under that entry or under Earl of Derby. It seems that at least Jeff begs to differ on it being a synonym for Earl of Derby.

    Thanks so much for your beautiful photos.

    Jeff, thanks so much for your insight and opinion. I did look it up in Dr. Brown's book and noticed the same thing you did. I hope others will reply their opinions/ understanding as well.
     
  5. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    I feel I should retain the services of a good lawyer, lol ! The "Earl of Derby " came directly from the WIKI PHOTOS re: my latest post and who am I to challenge it. Before I post any COSTA RICA CROTON WANDERINGS pictorials I research as many "SEARCH" (magnifying glass) as I as have time for (sometimes they are numerous) in order to confirm that what I comment will hold up to the scrutiny of the membership and I have seen others refer to this cultivar as MRS FRED SANDERS.

    As to my comment "First of all I am not a CROTON EXPERT, far from it but it sure sounds to me that the aforementioned refs: are describing the photographs that I submitted as Mrs. Fred Sanders in Costa Rican Croton gardens"...that's my story and I'm sticking to it :confused::confused::confused: !!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  6. palmisland

    palmisland Well-Known Member

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    1,258
    Location:
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    Keep posting Robert, we'll sort it out later!:)
     
  7. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Wow, Robert, my intent was never to upset you. I love your beautifully researched posts and I would love nothing more than to enter every photo of yours in the wiki. You are a wonderful, most pleasant forum member and although I've never met you, I consider you my friend. However, I try to verify cultivars when I have no knowledge of the history or facts related to it. I don't need to do that when people post Fishbone or Tortoise Shell. I've learned what those look like and we are not debating changing their names. However, if I am 'in charge' of entering something in the 'Croton Encyclopedia' I feel I have a duty to make sure it is correct. That is my choice. Especially when it involves attaching a name or two to a cultivar. I consider Jeff Searle an expert on crotons, but I have questioned his names and new entries in the past and not entered them in the wiki until I was relatively sure it was the right thing. I ask the forum every time I am uncertain and I don't enter things unless I'm relatively sure I'm doing a good service. It is nothing personal with you. I really, really like you, Robert. I hate being the 'gatekeeper' of the wiki. I am relatively new around here and I don't feel I should be the one to decide what to put in. I was hoping to get help and participation from other forum members when I need it, but it's like pulling teeth to get anyone to respond and help decide.

    Robert, for further explanation, other than changing settings, I had never clicked on Mrs. Fred Sanders. I didn't know what was in there. There are too many entries/photos in the wiki for me to know every detail that's in each one. Especially entries that have not had any information placed in them for years. I questioned the information that is there because I wasn't sure it was right/true. I didn't put it in there from the beginning, and Bren, as a newbie, had to rely on someone to give her that information. I don't alter her entries unless I am sure there is better information available. I asked the forum about that information hoping to get an answer or at least, some opinions. That is what I'm doing. I never rely on what is already there as fact, as I'm sure there are mistakes. I'm sure I have entered mistakes unknowingly, but I keep trying not to. I do want to make it a great source of information. I agree that the descriptions in your references describe what we know commonly as Fred Sanders. I am asking the membership if this is sufficient to make it synonymous with Mrs. Fred Sanders and whether the information available makes it synonymous with Earl of Derby. I will not be the one to decide this.

    Anyone can be in charge of the wiki. I took the 'job' because I wanted to help and I thought it would help me learn about crotons. I have enjoyed making it better and trying to make it the best source available for those wanting to learn about crotons. This involves asking for help and verification when I don't know about what people want to put in there. I rely on others to help sort out the answers since I simply don't know. However, obviously, I am not gaining any friends doing it and it takes up time that I frequently don't have. Someone else, please take the job and I will be just another forum member like everyone else. No conflict, no questioning, just observing in the background.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
  8. kurt decker

    kurt decker Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    ft lauderdale
    anna, your work is greatly appreciated. the great thing about the wiki format is, unlike a book, it can evolve. doesn't have to be right, just as right as we can make it. keep up the good work. robert, likewise, your photo essays are wonderful. always interesting to open your posts. let's not get too worked up, we can gigure
     
  9. kurt decker

    kurt decker Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    ft lauderdale
    figure it out later.
     
  10. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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    Ana, you're doing a wonderful job - please don't resign. When I don't respond to your requests for information, it's because I don't have the answers you're looking for, not that I'm not interested or that I don't care; I just don't know.

    I just went to a few of our references for information and here's what I found. In Brown's first book he says about Fred Sander. "Frequently and erroneously this variety is referred to as Mrs. Fred Sanders. The first description of this variety was in the 'Gardener's Chronicle' (London) April 25, 1908. It was described as follows: 'Croton Fred Sander , the handsomest and most elegant of all tri-lobed crotons.' "

    Brown also describes Earl of Derby: "Veitch's Catlg.of Pl.1878, p. 27. A trilobed-leaved form of the Disraeli type, with nearly the whole central portion of the leaf-blade yellow, the margins and tips of the lobes a grassy green.

    No mention is made that the two are synonymous. Note, Brown calls it Fred Sander not Fred Sanders.

    In the Christian papers, there is reference to Mrs. Fred Sanders but not to Earl of Derby.

    In the Veitch Catalog, Earl of Derby is mentioned with the description above but Fred Sander is not.

    Based on the above, I do not believe they are synonyms.
     
  11. Native son

    Native son Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    10a
    Anna please understand how much your work means to all of use the that surf this site and love these plants. Your feelings of frustration are very understandable. It is very similar to what happened to the leadership of the old society, you are a wonderful example of volunteerism being under appreacated. Take your time and know you are doing great work. My humor, you can have two of your choice,freebies,when you come see use in NOVEMBER.
     
  12. Bullwinkle

    Bullwinkle Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    1,460
    Location:
    DAVIE FL
    Ana,try not to get too crazy about figuring out "correct names",try your best to sort it out and then post it to the Wiki,it can always be corrected later.You are doing a great job :) As Kurt said, it can always be figured out later.
     
  13. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    Oh my God, this has blown up way out of proportion. Below I have attached my exact words to you via private message re: (MRS.) FRED SANDERS. I was just trying to bring to your attention that a discrepancy existed in the names of this cultivar as you have suggested many times and that we bring to your attention an anomaly when we encounter it…and that’s what I tried to do:

    “Also, via the Croton Society forum, I have just sent another pictorial illustrating “MRS. FRED SANDERS” in local Costa Rican gardens. I noticed there are no photos of this cultivar in the WIKI PHOTOS.

    NOTE # 01: Although there are two pix posted as FRED SANDERS in the WIKI PHOTOS and this same name can also be found in CROTONS OF THE WORLD… but, according to several forum members this name is incorrect because the “MRS.” has been omitted lately when referring to this variety. Just another “tidbit” that the experts can bounce back and forth”.


    All that being said, I have always been very complimentary in regards to your tireless and exemplary work you were and are doing with the WIKI PHOTOS as well as the remarkable improvement it has undergone since you took the reins. I really meant those compliments.

    Ann, please don’t take offense and accept my commentary in my original photo submission in a positive manner. Everything else that has been said has been my attempt to defend my thesis re: (MRS.) FRED SANDERS when this “whole thing” got started…please keep up the good work!

    Best Regards, Robert Heredia :)
     
  14. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Fortunately or unfortunately, it is not in my nature to put photos in the wiki without making a good effort to make sure their ID's are correct. Once the images are in there, they are more likely to be taken as word and much less likely to be re-analyzed, rehashed and figured out later (remember Linneaus and 'the continuation of an error'). I feel if we don't stop and try to figure things out before we put the entries in, the wiki will become of questionable value. In trying to take this approach I think I have upset some who may think I'm questioning their ID's. I've never intended it as a personal thing. It really doesn't matter to me whose photos they are, only that I don't know enough to know if the ID's are correct and that they need to be correct before going in. If I can't verify this by sources or by others' opinions/ confirmation/ consensus, I don't put the entry in. It's nothing personal. Many times I've wanted to put photos in but couldn't get any comments confirming/denying ID's, so I just dropped it. If anyone wants to do it differently, please take the job.

    Marie, thanks so much for your helpful post. It's so interesting to know that this croton was already being described and distributed in 1908. Amazing. Also interesting that in the 1960's Dr. Brown mentions that people had already had trouble with the name of this cultivar. I think this clears things up that this cultivar is Fred Sander or Fred Sanders. In his second book the index refers to it as Fred Sanders, so maybe we should stick with that since it's the latest? What do you think? I also think it clears things on whether there is more than one synonym. I don't see any evidence of this either, so l think we can feel good about calling this cultivar by one name. Also, now that we know, I will correct the erroneous comment under Mrs. Fred Sanders that it is synonymous with Earl of Derby. Marie, I am glad you looked up the information in Dr. Brown's first book. I only have the second one.

    I hope you all will understand that my questions are just that, and no offense is ever intended. I also hope some of you will try to answer my pleas for needing help. If we help each other, the wiki should be a great resource that we can count on to be the best information available, and something to be proud of.
     
  15. Perry Edge

    Perry Edge Active Member

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    126
    Anna, your work is very much appreciated by all of us. I hope you will continue to provide such a valuable service to croton enthusiasts worldwide. You are absolutely right to ask questions and seek solid evidence before putting a questionable croton into the wiki. That is the proper way, and the only way to do nomenclature. Unfortunately, croton ID is tricky and confusing, and even the experts can be wrong. You are terrific at what you are doing, and how you go about doing it. Don't change!
     
  16. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Thanks, Perry, Lamar, Mike, Kurt and Marie. Robert, I hope we can understand each other better next time. Sometimes it's easy for things to get out of hand on the internet where you can't hear inflections in voices nor see facial expressions.
     

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