Idea on the Newport Beach coco.

Discussion in 'PALM TREES - WHERE TROPICAL STARTS' started by Stan, Apr 17, 2015.

  1. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    Contact the real owner,offer to remove the dying palm,take it to your large greenhouse until it recuperates- around 2018. Replant it in your soucal z24 Sunset or z11 USDA climate or Palm Springs or Coachella valley. Maybe its the Coconut "Lucy" with special genes.

    After all, it is just one of a kind. Doesn't seem American to just let it die.
     
  2. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    I think that digging that thing up would kill it. It is already weak, and from what I remember there is little opportunity to get any kind of a root ball.

    Coconuts grow quickly. And if given the best SoCal microclimate, a young healthy palm would be worth the trouble. But not this old sickly thing. With the things we have learned, I think that it isn't so much the genes, but that special SoCal location that is the secret.
     
  3. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    It makes you wonder how much better it would have looked if all the many years it was lavished with water,timely fertilizer? At its best,it looked Cabo or Madeira or northern Florida limit look. I would have been proud to have it. And here it was just an afterthought planting.

    I always thought the Washy next to it might have helped- its roots kept the soil draining during the occasional NB wet winter.
     
  4. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    I heard that way back when (and it's been a while now), some palm guys were kinda taking care of it - so much so that they were putting fungicide on it during the cold months. Some say that this is one of the secrets to getting them up to some size in SoCal.
     
  5. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

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    Looking at some of the old photos, it looked like it had a fat trunk and was putting out enough fronds to maintain its girth. Its decline over the past few years can be attributed to the lack of loving care. Its will to survive would have kept it going in my opinion, it just would have been incapable of producing mature nuts.
     
  6. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    You're right Moose. I think after it had started trunking, a basic regimen of adequate water and fertilizer would have kept it fairly healthy and growing.
     
  7. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    Moose,how well do coconuts transplant in Florida? Do they need a big rootball?
    Think of all those large coconuts planted in New Jersey beaches for the summer and left to die in October. Are they potted coco's or do you know if they are field grown and dug? They seem to thrive...for three months.

    Also as far as fruiting coconuts? I wouldn't give up on San Diego one day. Down that far south nights get to about 70f in summer. That could trigger flowering, hypothetically. It seem to me many tropicals need warm nights more then they need hot days. During the day,they sit in sun warming them up. In soucal 75-80f might do it.

    One last- not living down there,I have read this. People in the Los Angeles area are growing Papaya plants easily enough, but say they don't have much flavor. I've read a couple of accounts of tropical Papaya's tasting great in San Diego.
    Who knows?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2015
  8. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

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    Stan - Coconuts transplant readily in South Florida (palm beach south) and northerly Florida coastal areas. Coconuts are field grown for the landscape trade and do not require a very large root ball. They must be staked for about two years before the newly established roots can anchor the palm.

    Coconuts do not like temps lower then the 40's, it really starts hurting them. They can withstand some cold, but our arctic blasts are usually shortly lived - warm temperatures returning quickly. Getting a Coconut to flower is completely different then growing the nuts to maturity. The nuts take at least a year to 18 months to mature. Getting the palm to "set" its fruit is difficult and will abort their nuts after any extended cold event.

    Coconuts can tolerate extended dry periods but they are very happy when our monsoonal type rainy season happens. They also really appreciate the humidity.

    There are three factors that make it a challenge to grow Coconuts in Southern California.

    1. Lack of rain. We get 70+ inches per year, most areas of S. Cali get less then 15.
    2. Lack of humidity. At 58% humidity - Florida gardeners will bitch how dry it is. Cali gardeners would consider that very humid by their standards.
    3. Winter lows. The areas that can grow Coconuts in Florida see high 30's F occasionally, rarely below freezing. Frost puts a major hurting on Coconuts.
     
  9. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    Moose,the best areas of soucal wont go below 40-45f. The Channel islands may stay above 50f all winter.
    Do you know soucal has Coffee and Banana commercial plantations? Both depend at least on no frost even if they don't need tropical warm in winter.
    I just get that feeling some guy has a courtyard in a great microclimate that can do it. And there it will be one day,all alone,no competition from other plants,looking good.
     
  10. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Stan - I don't think the lows are as crucial as the day long temps during winter days.

    There are weeks when the temp doesn't get into the 70s. And it is in the 60s for only a few hours a day. That means temps in the 40s and 50s (or lower) for 20 hours a day. It's these long periods of very cool weather that I think is the main constraining factor. I know that is what got to me - not the occasional cold snap, but the constant cool and short winter days. That is why I and coconuts would rather be living someplace else. :)

    A good microclimate - wind protected, south facing wall and/or slope, full sun, surrounded by buildings and/or black asphalt parking lots, etc. - adds crucial hours of elevated temps. Note that the Newport coconut has several of these "helpers."
     
  11. Geoff

    Geoff Member

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    Well, it's officially dead now
     
  12. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    507
    Its dead,but there might be dozens more here and there in soucal long past the seedling phase. Considering we have had the warmest winters on record something like 8 times since 2000,and ALL time warmest this winter,the Newport Beach coco didn't really have the advantage of that when it was planted,and also at the end when somebody just gave up all care of it.
    I still say,haul one large one from Cabo, plant in the same type of microclimate- hot wall in frost free and 30'sf free zone. You have instant one of a kind.
    I'm still going for first Plumeria or Mango in town!.

    I'm thinking..a few Palmaholics have large boats. A nice trip to Cabo to pick up a trunker coco maybe 3'-4' worth,could fit on deck. Or,a large boat towing a hauling dingy with coconut. THAT,would be a real adventure.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  13. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    507
    I saw a program on HGTV that was filmed in Yap,a tiny island hundreds of miles east of Manila. There,on a beach bluff not more then 4' above the ocean water line,roots partially exposed....was a Newport Beach look a like. Same small crown of (deep green,shiny) fronds,smaller trunk that did narrow quite a bit for only being 6' or so. In the background were tall Coconut palms. So,I think the small Coconut wasn't getting enough water. In sand and right on the edge,must have gone very dry frequently. It didn't even have as many fronds as the NBC had in its prime.
    So maybe that was what kept the Newport Beach coconut from being even greater then it was?

    Episode 7 'Off the Grid' 2015. If they repeat it...you wont miss spotting it as they stood right next to it.
     
  14. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

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    Sorry to hear the bad news on the New Port Beach Coconut. Sounds like the Coconuts around my area, they can make it for some years and then we get a winter that puts them in a decline and they do not pull thru. I gave up and went with a coco look alike with Beccarophoenix madagascariensis. Has handled cooler temps better than a Coconut.

    pizap.com14324486044701.jpg pizap.com14324487642581.jpg pizap.com14324488343381.jpg pizap.com14324486731581.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2015
  15. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    That's a nice one Scott - and IMO - every bit as beautiful as a Coconut (or more so).

    Which one is that?
    The "windows" form?
    The "no windows" form?
    Or the B. alfredii?

    It doesn't appear to be the "no windows" form - which is now officially the B. madagascariensis.
     
  16. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

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    Dean, I acquired this palm a few years ago from a CFPACS meeting as B. madagascariensis non windows. The palm had windows at that time but has out grown that stage of its life. The palm is growing in morning sun with filtered sun through out the day. Not a fast grower but has picked up a little speed the last couple of years after planting in the ground.
     
  17. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    That's a good looking palm. The do though only have vertical trunks. That's one of the mystique's of coconuts,the leaning gentle curved trunk. Even the NB coco had that. I'm thinking more and more the NBC could have been much larger and still going if it had been watered like a King palm instead of the skimpy watering it always put up with.

    I would try that Beccaro palm if I had the chance. Since I know Coco's are no chance here.
     
  18. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Scott - photos can be deceiving, but I'm thinking your palm is not B. mad. 'non-windows.' I'm thinking it is probably B. 'windows' which is going to be called something like B. fenestralis (windows in latin).

    It could also be B. alfredii, but I am still going with the B. 'windows' - a great palm. They all are. The B. madagascariensis is very upright, with a shuttle cock appearance. And the B. alfredii is not that green.
     
  19. LJG

    LJG Active Member

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    Looks like B. madagascariensis to me Dean.

    As far as the Newport coconut, I was glad we could move on from the "coconuts can grow here cause look at the one in Newport" comments we always heard. Coconuts have attempted to be grown here in San Diego for over a century and you don't see any. Why is that?
     
  20. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    There's one by Steve of soucal in San Diego. Havent seen a photo of it in years though. San Diego Zoo has a small one a couple of years old.
    As I said up above..soucal is much warmer/milder now then ever before. It wasn't until 2012 that the USDA called coastal soucal z11a for the first time. Before,for the previous decades it was no more then 10b.
    So,rather then give up...the odds have increased.
    If the NBC had been fronting a palm nursery..how much better would it have been? At least still alive!
     
  21. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    If you went back Len a century in soucal? You would have gone through huge freezes every 10-20 years. 1915 wiped out the Huntington's palms,snow fell on the beaches of San Diego and also in that decade a SD low- some say of 13f- was recorded and the city called it 23f,According to an article in Pac Hort years ago.. The 1940's had a second wipe out of the Huntington. My years are approx,as I cant recall the exact years...but close.
    Since 2000 what has been the coldest morn in coastal soucal? I bet nothing worse then 35f in the "never recorded a frost" parts of soucal.
    Also- the low average temps in downtown Los Angeles are running 7f warmer then the 1940's. To think Hollywood portrayed itself as tropical back then. That last F number might be disputed,but I did read that someplace.
     
  22. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    I think the SoCal coco-craze is pretty funny. Sure it's kinda neat, but the hype and attention and posts the topic always receives gets me laughing.

    I can grow a coconut, but I'm at a elevation that it probably wouldn't fruit - but I have no desire to plant even one. I see more coco palms in a day than I ever saw Washingtonias in a day when living in SoCal - and I never wanted to plant a Washingtonia.

    But we are all human I guess - always wanting what we can't have.
     
  23. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh, and BTW - I remember sitting in class during a final exam in '66 or '67 (I think), in La Jolla, and watching it snow outside about 10-11:00am - and looking in amazement at the snow covered lawn outside. Now it only lasted on the ground about a hour - but at lunch we went out and drove around, and it was crazy how many minor traffic accidents there were all over the place - signs run over, bumper thumpers in parking lots - SoCal drivers and a little snow don't mix.
     
  24. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    I will say this. I've never seen a shirt,towel,cartoon,insignia...that wasn't of a coconut palm. What the rest of the world thinks is the most beautiful palm in the world is out of reach of Hollywood and its bathing beauty actress lifestyles.
    So,the quest continues!

    One last for now. NB is equaled all along the coast- Santa Barbara to San Diego. How hard can it be to find another spot with asphalt backed by a brick wall? It sounds like a whole lot of driveways in California.
     
  25. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

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    Stan, I believe that is why the coconut palm has been ingrained in our minds as a symbol of the tropics. As I head south, I always look to the west as I approach the Skyway Bridge over the bay here. Looking to the west at the north end of the bridge you see the first signs of the coconut zone here. There were a few good size and a few of those with fruit around my area up until our winter a few years ago that wiped them out.
     
  26. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

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    Its a Zone 11 palm. Yes were can grow it in 10 a & b with some pretty good success. We have lots of rain and lots of humid heat which they relish. Our cold fronts are short lived which they seem to tolerate. You throw 30 + days every winter in the upper 30's to mid 40's at them, thet take a real hurting. May take a year or more to recover. California weather does not allow for such a recovery, as evidenced by the now deceased New Port Coconut. A Coconut in the ground in South Florida as long as the New Port Coconut was would easily be 60+ feet tall.

    I find the California obsession with growing Coconuts entertaining. Its a waste of one's time and resources trying and propagate one when a much better looking palm could have successfully been grown.

    Just my opinion. :oops:
     
  27. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    Moose,the Holy Grail of all tropical plants creates exactly what Scott said. IF anyplace in soucal actually gets Coconut palms to trunking(again)...no better conversation piece,bragging rights and one great advertisement for one's skills,than that.
    It really would have been great if the NBC had been in front of a surfer shop-lol. Better then a botanical garden.
     
  28. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    AHA! There IS another trunking coconut. The Coachella Valley coconut. I knew it. You can't say I didn't call it.:homer:
     
  29. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    The "white whale" of the California palm world.
     
  30. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

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    Agreed Dean. While we South Florida can successfully grow Coconuts, Dypsis baronii struggles here. I'd rather have a beautiful Dypsis baronii then a Coconut. Dypsis baronii does well in many California locations. To have an ratty struggling Coconut over a Dypsis baronii escapes me. There are so many palms that do well in the semi Mediterranean climate of California that we could not possibly grow. I guess it comes down to having a palm survive that no one else does. My palm growing experience let go of those illusions years ago. Learned from many failures. Much time consuming nurturing of certain palms is no longer something that is of interest to me.
     
  31. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    The CV coconut looks good- very good. Remember,this is just June 1st. It should look much better as the summer rolls on.
    Besides the heat,I bet the sandy desert soils..remnants of ancient oceans,help. Coconuts probably love limestone.

    I would bet all I have that Yuma Arizona would be even better. Warmer winters,with frost and freeze lows in the 50's all winter. This winter Yuma ave. 80f or so for highs.

    Its the blazing hot summers that take away some of the envy- but not all!
     
  32. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    NOW,there's TWO California coconuts. The second equal to any..with coconuts on it.
    Seem's like all the poles have been conquered,all the continents discovered,and now nothing tropical that cant be grown in California someplace. After seeing Papaya's with fruit in Hayward, and now the coconuts,there is nowhere to go.
    I would bet a Coco De Mer is thriving in palm desert also!
     
  33. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    I think it is interesting that those palms could be growing there for that long - and it takes a PalmTalker to notice and make it known. Think of what else is out there that has yet to be "discovered."

    I have a friend who has a citrus farm slightly upslope of Borrego (just around the corner from the Cochella Vally), and has been growing heat loving grapefruit (among other citrus) for decades. And he has escaped all of the freezes of the last few decades. And with copious well water, due to the run off from the mountain range, will this be the new frontier for tropicals in SoCal?
     
  34. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    In one of the above posts,I said "since 2000" California has been very mild. He planted the La Quintana coconut in 2000. I think Dean,if you're a hard core tropical plant guy in California..you just might hunt out those counties that are equal to the Coachella Valley to live. IF,you can use the water needed. Or,take that heat all summer.
    I wonder if Crotons can take outdoor dry air? I wouldn't use indoors for a comparison. Not the same in practice.
     
  35. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    Another close up of the Palm Desert coco shows a streak running down the trunk starting about 3/4 of the way from the top. I think that's the result of the 2007 freeze.
    All that heat builds up reserves in the plant. Well known that's why many tropicals survive in colder winters then some in milder climates that die at first frost or freeze.
     
  36. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    And Stan - I have seen cocos over here with substantial damage to their trunks - I mean like 3/4 of the trunk destroyed - and the head still look great.
     
  37. LJG

    LJG Active Member

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    I can no longer go to that ridiculous thread on PT. The OP playing games and even quoting himself is so childish it is annoying. Glad to see others finally were annoyed enough to comment to get that thread back on track. The amazing interest in it with long-winded opinions on why it is growing is annoying too. Almost every person with the opinions doesn't even live here. But that aside these desert coconut palms will just get people to waste their time trying here in SoCal all over again. I would imagine 1000s try every few years. Home Depot sells out of their coconuts here. They get shipments of about 50 at my local store. They are gone in a few weeks. I asked a lady in the gardening department about this and she said they always sell. I am sure more will be found over the years, but the odds are so low why would someone want to waste such limited time to grow a turd? Just to check a box?

    I know the people wanting to try will use the "well how do you know unless you actually try? We didn't know Dypsis prestoniaia would grow here". Big difference. Coconut palms have been tried for over a century here. The Hotel Del brought them in with all there other plants way back when. People have been bringing them across the border and home from trips for ever. It isn't trying to establish if some new plant not grown here before is viable, it is trying to grow something that has been tried and tried. Not the same thing. I don't even consider it "zone pushing". Heck, most the time those telling someone to try is in an area that has no chance for one. It is the old time growers in SoCal that tell people to not waste their time.

    Like Gary said, I have seen stuff growing in the deserts that can not grow in SoCal outside that small dessert band. I love palms and am happy to see such trees look good, but I never understood planting something to have it grow like crap just to say you have something. The street views from three years ago show typical winter ugliness. The two mellowest winters ever have helped but reality will set in at some stage again. It might live but it will suffer and look seasonally bad. Just not my thing. I rip out all plants that don't adapt or look good here after a few winter.

    Who knows? Maybe I am just turning into that guy that yells "get off my lawn" :)
     
  38. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    What is also funny is that Bo planted one "token" Samoan dwarf coco palm in his garden, I don't think Marcus has one (and if he does, it is probably only one for a specific reason or species), I don't think Bill Austin has any, I don't have any - and so on.

    If they did grow well, and were all over the place, people would be complaining about the nuts falling , and having to constantly trim them. Try being in a grove of tall coco palms during a nice wind storm - you would run for your life.

    Many years ago I was in a house during a tropical storm that was surrounded by coco palms. All through the night it sounded like a war zone outside. Not only did the sound of a wind driven nut hitting the metal roof sound like a bomb, it also left dozens of nice dents. You could have died outside that night.
     
  39. Stan

    Stan Well-Known Member

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    I think you're being a bit hard. Its a Sunset z13 area that they call "subtropical desert". I think its gotten even milder since that was written 30 years ago or more. Those two palms are far from clinging to life...they are thriving.
    There was an article that quoted the Mayor of Phoenix who said that the desert had become warmer in his lifetime and that they are expecting the first ever triple digit low soon,and how they are preparing for that killer heat.
    All that is just perfect for Coconuts. AND, we talking a large,large, area...not just one or two homes. I don't see much protection given to the Palm Desert beauty- and its huge.
    When pro landscapers see that Coconuts are now growing in the low desert? You can bet they will be planting them in front of Hotels,Casino's (Indian),maybe public buildings...and planting them large from Mexico maybe? I bet.

    When I saw a tropical Papaya in Hayward,with large fruit,that's a huge example for our record mild winter..and it could always be milder. I just hope wetter too.
     
  40. LJG

    LJG Active Member

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    Those things are not "thriving" and I never said they were clinging to life. In order to "thrive" you mature and reproduce. The warmest winters in history the last two years and they still drop the fruit. Just like in Mardy Darians greenhouse where it hardly drops into 50s.

    Why I find most hilarious and what people are laughing about behind the scenes here is where were all these all of a sudden desert experts the last decade? Not once did any of them say "try to grow a coconut in the desert" or "the desert in Palm Springs area will
    support coconuts". But once a coconut appears, oh yeah, they got all the answers and don't even live here.
     

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