Fla. State Horticultural Society 1953 - New Hybrid Crotons

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by Marie Nock, Oct 31, 2016.

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  1. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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  2. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

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    Marie - nice article. Almost hilarious in the author's attempts to quantify various aspects of a genetically unstable plant grown in a variety of conditions.
     
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  3. kwtimo

    kwtimo Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff. I'm wondering what happened to some of the cultivars they had named. Well said, Phil.
     
  4. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Enjoyed the article, Marie. Thanks so much! I've added a couple of the missing hybridizers mentioned to the wiki. In particular, the ones for Sibyl Griffin and Rubyii. I think the others were already in there. Reading the article brought up a couple of questions for me.
    1) Is the mentioned 'Brooks', Martha Brooks? Marie, I think you have a Martha Brooks? Does anyone have this croton and can post a photo of it? The two in the wiki look different to me and I was hoping to get a better grip of what this croton looks like. I have Ron Kiefert's 'Grandma', and to me it looks like one of the wiki ones for 'Martha Brooks'. Anyone else think so?
    2) The coloration described in this article for Sybil Griffin sounds more like the one that was in Marnie's yard and whose cuttings were identified by Bob Alonzo and Dr. Brown as Sybil Griffin. Judy's Sybil Griffin is so easily distinguished, yet carries the same name. Would it be wise for us to agree to give it a name to differentiate these crotons? It seems silly we know they are different plants with different coloration and habit, yet we call them the same. Any opinions on this?
    3) Alright, I guess I have three questions. In the article the spelling is: Sibyl Griffin. In the wiki: Sybil Griffin. What to do? Should we trust their spelling as correct or should we trust the spelling we've seen all along?
     
  5. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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    Ana, Ray Hernandez identified one of my crotons as a Martha Brooks or Ann Rutherford so I'm not sure which it is. It does look like the wiki pictures though. Whose croton is the first picture? The Brooks description sounds like Martha Brooks. Why not put in both as aka.

    I think we could have both spellings of Sybil Griffin until we know who Sybil is and how her name was spelled; Frank Brown's spelling is Sybil. Wasn't Bob Alonso in touch with Al Cutler's daughter?

    I've never understood two very distinct crotons being called Sybil Griffin but they are so I just number them as 1 and 2, the yellow one is 3 and the Hawaiian one with more colors is 4. What do others do?
     
  6. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Marie, the first photo in the Martha Brooks page was not entered by me. It was before I started doing the wiki. I left all the previous photos in, but I don't have a clue whose plant it is. Does it look like Martha Brooks? It looks so different than the second one, even allowing for different conditions. Any opinions out there? I will add the aka.

    I guess I'm ok with the several Sybil Griffins. I think it's a bit of a shame though, since we all know they are different plants.
     
  7. kwtimo

    kwtimo Well-Known Member

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    key west, fl 10b-11
    Jeff sells a plant called Mardi Gras, also referred to as the large leafed Sybil Griffin.
     
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  8. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Oh, I did notice that. Thanks, Tim.


     
  9. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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    Is there any history on the Glock's variety of Sybil Griffin? I'm asking because if one is renamed, we should try to keep the name Sybil Griffin on the "right" one. Remember that Bob Alonso and Robert Halgrim identified the other one as Sybil Griffin and it is also the one that is pictured in Brown's book.
     
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  10. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

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    somewhere deep in the bowels of this site is an earlier discussion of Sybil Griffin with at least three different varieties shown.
     
  11. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member


    Marie, I'll pm Judy to see if she knows anything more about it.
     
  12. Judy Glock

    Judy Glock Active Member

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    I got my Sibyl Griffen approximately 12 years ago and I think from Jeff. He also had his large leaf one about that time or shortly after. Remember, my crotons get a lot larger in the Keys and the color tends to be pinker. My Sibyl in Ft Myers ,
    an air layer is slightly different, not only in size but coloration. I looked up SG in my old 1957 Exotica. The black and white picture is very similar on page 527. The text on page 978 reads " a Cutler hybrid of 'Kentucky ', with tremendous leaves, deeply lobed oak leaf type, blackish red with areas along the veins salmon-rose shading to autumn colors and pink. That description fits mine pretty closely. In Frank Browns old book he adds that the tip of the leaf flares in width giving it a unique shape.
    The picture of Jerry Shilling SG was an air layer from mine I think--at least I gave him one.

    I'm also the lucky winner of an Hawaiian Sybil Griffen from the croton meeting/auction this past weekend! Yea!
     
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  13. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Thanks, Judy. Well, I'm just as confounded as I was before! Anyone?
     
  14. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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    I read the description in Exotica that Judy referenced, looked at the pictures, read Brown's description from the 1960 book and I think that even back in the fifties people were talking about two different crotons with the same name. I don't know how we can resolve it. I wonder if Bob Alonso could shed some light?
     
  15. kwtimo

    kwtimo Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Does anyone else's Sybil Griffin do this? 20161107_080259_HDR.jpg 20161107_080350_HDR.jpg 20161107_080323_HDR.jpg
     
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  16. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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  17. palmisland

    palmisland Well-Known Member

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  18. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

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    After doing some minor researching through the old books, looking at the pictures here that are online, etc, I'm fairly confident that what I have had for several years now and that would also include Judy's plant is, Sybil Griffn. I think there are the two forms, one getting larger leaves than the other. First off...not too sure on the above pictures of Tim's plant. The colors with all that orange veining looks way off and can't tell if that's part of the larger plant. But as we all know, crotons
    can look drastically different growing in the lower Keys than here on the mainland.

    As far as Toby Rose's plant, I can't see any comparison to matching up and the same for the plant that Ron Kiefert put up. I would not call them SG.

    I'm in the belief or understanding that there's only one Sybil Griffen plant. Also, the name "Mardi Gras" is floating around for the new name for the large leaf form of SG. Don't know where this originated from. But all this talk that there's a #1,#2,#3 and maybe a #4 different SG plants is ridiculous. As always....just my thoughts.
     
  19. kwtimo

    kwtimo Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    key west, fl 10b-11
    Searle, the leaves with the crazy pinkish orange color could potentially be a sport(s). They are coming off separate branches. You can easily see that the main part of the plant has the right coloring for SG. I'll know more in time. I'm with you on your opinion that there are only the two Sybil plants.
     

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