EBURNEUM (MADAGASCAR), TAMARA, LUCHA or OTHER?

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by donroberth, Aug 8, 2017.

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  1. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    I found these two beauties in a local nursery but I’m not sure what I’ve got… Eburneum (Madagascar), Tamara, Lucha or something else?

    I have compared them with WIKI MASTER NAME LIST FOTOS but I cannot for the life of me, definitely I.D. them. Perhaps I can eliminate Lucha? What hints can anyone give me in order to properly name mine :confused:???

    01 DSC07411.JPG 02 DSC07408.JPG 03 DSC07404.JPG 04 DSC07422.JPG
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  2. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

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    669
    Robertico,
    To me your plants look like Tamara. Eburneum has a shorter broader leaf without the point at the end and Lucha has green only as almost invisible streaks in the leaves but with the same leaf shape as Tamara. Needless to say, Lucha is a very slow grower.
     
  3. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    Thanks Marie,

    Tamara it shall be... perhaps "in person" I could better see the difference. Comparing the two in the WIKI MASTER NAME LIST FOTOS they look almost identical to me :(. Robertico
     
  4. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    669
    I just looked in the wiki and I agree, it is confusing. Mike Harris's plant looks like Tamara to me and Lamar's and Ron's look like what I know as Eburneum. I hope someone else will weigh in on this confusion. Also I thought Andrew was a synonym for Tamara not Eburneum. I don't know about Madagascar.
     
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  5. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    Vero Beach
    I think I remember a similar discussion in a thread on Lucha from a while back and I thought Andrew and Tamara were mentioned as interchangeable but different from Eburneum. I can tell Lucha apart because the color and habit are very different (my 4 year old Lucha is still under 2 feet tall) but I don't think I would be able to tell the difference between Eburneum and Tamara. I need to go out and take a close look at the Eburneum I got from David to see the characteristics you were discussing. It would be helpful to have someone post some more photos of Tamara to add to the wiki since there is just the multiple photos of the one from Scott and it is so close up it is hard to see the overall appearance of the leaves. To me I could not tell the difference between the plants in Scott's photo of Tamara and Eburneum. I do think that Lamar and Ron's photos look different than the rest. What about the narrow leaf form of Eburneum without any photos? Is this plant even around and what does it look like? If Lamar and Ron's plants are the true Eburneum would the narrow leaf form of Eburneum be the same as Tamara since it appears to have longer leaves?
     
  6. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    Vero Beach
    [​IMG]
    This is an old photo of the plant that I have which I had understood to be Eburneum (I think it might have been called Australian Eburneum when I got it from David years ago). To me this looks more like what Marie thought was Tamara in the wiki or maybe it is narrow leaf Eburneum. I know David had two different forms of Eburneum when I got this at his booth at a plant show. I am fairly sure that my plant also looks identical to the one at Harry Leu which is labeled as Eburneum, but I will check next time I go there.
     
  7. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

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    374
    Location:
    Vero Beach
    [​IMG]
    Here is my Lucha and it is about the same size as the Calatheas around it.
     
  8. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    Vero Beach
    [​IMG]
    This is a photo Lamar posted on the Lucha thread which the description had as Australian Eburneum. I had originally thought that having many leaves lightly spotted with green while a few were more like Eburneum was the way to identify Tamara and or Andrew. Never noticed the leaf shape until Marie mentioned it. That about covers everything I know, now I am going to leave the rest to the experts.
     
  9. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    Thanks Marie and Hello VeroKarl... many thanks for noting your experiences and posting your fotos for all to appreciate and hopefully contribute to the discussion. Here's looking forward to some of the "Croton Masters" out there weighing-in adding their observations and/or tips :).
     
  10. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Thanks for this discussion! The wiki is a mess with this group. Let's see if we can try to figure it out this week so I can correct it. Please hang with me. I will be busy next week, so hope to do it this week. Will look later when I have more time, but keep up the thoughts/photos!
     
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  11. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    Vero Beach
    Hello Robertico,
    I am glad you started the thread. These are the kinds of things I enjoy learning from the real experts on the thread who have been working with crotons for decades. I think once we get Phil, Jeff, Lamar, David, Randy and others to add to what Marie has mentioned we will get a better picture of the differences between these plants. Of course Ana has a great eye for crotons as well especially with all the work she has done on the wiki. There may be some historical descriptions in journal articles that Phil can track down. I just try to soak it all up.
     
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  12. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    This is the only one I have and I got it maybe five/six years ago as Andrew. To my eye, it looks the same thing as the Tamara. So far no one has a Madagascar? Clearly, Lamar's plant and maybe Ron's look different with a rounder tip and a more uniform pattern. It seems Marie's comment about this being Eburneum is probably so. A search reveals this confusion in the wiki has been brought up a number of times- mostly by me. I wish we could get it resolved. I think we are closer? Can anyone get Jeff or any of the other 'experts' to see if they agree with Marie? I will PM him, but it may be a while before he checks in. Anyone have his email? Andrew-Ana.jpg
     
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  13. Kingdavid

    Kingdavid Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Location:
    st lucie co
    I still cant do pictures but i have what is at least 4 different ones . i bought a real Austalian Long skinny Eburneum back in 2005 from Tampa show but the freeze got it maybe 2 years later . I may have a old pic of that one to..That would be 5 kinds Im going to try and post from my phone see if that works.....
     
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  14. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Hi Anna,
    I checked the photos in the gallery under all 3 names, Ebuneum, Tamara and Lucha. I say the pictures under Eburneum are correct. I looked at the pictures of Tamara and see no difference at all. Where did the name Tamara come from? I think these pictures are definitely Ebuneum as well. And under the name Lucha, these appear to be correct. My best guess is Lucha originally came from Eburneum, a sport. It's a much smaller plant, with small leaves and should display the classic small specks of dark green. It can also have small blothches of solid green/gray like Eburneum and a very pointed leaf tip. I have no idea where the name Madagascar came from and to me, is never heard in "the trade".
     
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  15. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Robert, I think your plants look like Eburneum and Karl's plant looks like a good Lucha.
     
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  16. donroberth

    donroberth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Escazu, Costa Rica
    Mr. Jeff Searle… many thanks for chiming in with your observations that have been duly noted in my Croton Photo Files and for now, will be named Eburneum aka Tamara. This thread has created some very interesting comments/attention and I have benefitted “oodles & gobbles” from it. Many thanks to all ShamefullyEmbarrased!!!
     
  17. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    4,845
    For what is worth I had read some place that Tamara is a more compact look alike grower of Eburneum, branching more and slowly reaching a mature height of 4'.
     
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  18. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    Recall that we are dealing with a genetically unstable plant here. Lucha seems to be stable and slow growing sport from Eburneum. Leaf length is probably a result of cultural conditions more than anything else. The only mention in print of Lucha I can recall is the small book on Filipino crotons (San Franciscos) which I cannot find right now.
    onward through the fog
     
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  19. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    Vero Beach
    Using the information from the wiki I was able to track down that a company in Holland named Ammerlaan Grondcultuur entered Tamara in a major flower show in Holland in 2009. Below are pictures of Tamara from the company that entered it the contest and the large one is from Bakker.com in the UK. To me it looks the same as Eburneum with the exception of the amount of white on the leaves. The date that it was introduced appears to be 2009, but I don't know if the plant that was entered and won the award was from the company that developed it. Likely just a variation of Eburneum rather than a unique plant.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  20. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    Ref: San Francisco Ornamental plants on the Philippines by Benito S. Vergara page 27
    "Probably a sport of Charmer. The most delicate looking San Francisco. Leaves light green at base and almost yellow at top, up to 20 cm. long and 5 cm. wide. margin wavy, dark green in mature leaves. Sprinkled dark green dots near midrib. Bought in Bay, Laguna." Just noticed that picture is titled Ben Vergara. Will try to copy the pics so stand by to stand by...
     
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  21. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

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    1,644
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    CROTON002.jpg Here's the photo and text
     
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  22. Native son

    Native son Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    I had to go out in the rain and find this one. image.jpg Let the bidding begin at .55 cents
     
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  23. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Now we can see why the wiki entries are so confusing. I still am very confused, because like Marie, I do see a difference between the ones with the pointy leaves and narrower leaves (Tamara, Andrew), and the rounder tips and broader leaves (Eburneum). It seems that both types are out there. If the pointy ones are a sport of the Eburneum mother (or vice versa), they still constitute different cultivars. We have a number of examples in the wiki: Congo is a sport of Mammey, but both are in the wiki under different names as different cultivars. I don't know why this should be different. What would you all propose we do? I am open to suggestions. I think we all agree that Lucha is different and it already has a page of its own.
     
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  24. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Does anyone remember if the longer narrow leaved form has been around Florida prior to the introduction of Tamara in Europe in 2009? While it is pretty recent, it is before I arrived in Florida.
     
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  25. Native son

    Native son Well-Known Member

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    Wow 17 hours and I can't give it away.
     
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  26. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Sorry Lamar it looks like the same version of Eburneum I have, but if you propagate the other one with the smaller rounded leaves I will be interested. :)
     
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  27. Kingdavid

    Kingdavid Esteemed Member

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    st lucie co
  28. Kingdavid

    Kingdavid Esteemed Member

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    i picked a few off my phone and it worked ..ill try to find the different ones..... Its wierd that there are 2 or 3 differerent looking all on the same plant
     
  29. Kingdavid

    Kingdavid Esteemed Member

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    st lucie co
  30. Kingdavid

    Kingdavid Esteemed Member

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    1,151
    Location:
    st lucie co
  31. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Vero Beach
    The plant with the yellowish color instead of white and the more rounded leaves looks really interesting and different from both Lucha and all of the other Eburneums that have been posted.
     
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  32. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

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  33. Native son

    Native son Well-Known Member

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    Karl is this the plant you want an airlayer from? image.jpg
     
  34. Native son

    Native son Well-Known Member

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    In my experience the small thin leafed plant is more rare than the round leaf like the last post. This plant at one point a few years ago found its way into the big box stores. Page two the plant I took the above airlayer from is MIA gone no longer on my lot. I guess it grew foots and walked out of here. It happens but not for some time around here.
     
  35. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    374
    Location:
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    Yes, this is the one. I only have Lucha and the longer leaved one. I don't have one like this. Thanks, Karl
     
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  36. Kingdavid

    Kingdavid Esteemed Member

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    1,151
    Location:
    st lucie co
    IMG_4812.JPG IMG_4811.JPG IMG_4810.JPG IMG_4809.JPG
    i have quite a few off that one ... ill look tomorrow .... the yellower one with the round leaves is what i thought was the original Eburneum . My first cutting came from that plant 17 yrs ago ,,,, that plant was very old to
     
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  37. VeroKarl

    VeroKarl Well-Known Member

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    374
    Location:
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    David have you moved to the new location? I need to take some pictures of the plants I got from you last year. Some of the smaller plants have really started to put on new growth and I want to see if you know what they are or if they were unnamed or seedlings. Need to stop down and visit again. Glad you are getting photos on the forum again.
     

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