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Dypsis tsaravoasira

Discussion in 'PALM TREES - WHERE TROPICAL STARTS' started by ariscott, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. ariscott

    ariscott Active Member

    Messages:
    37
    Discussion thread for Dypsis tsaravoasira. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.
     
  2. ariscott

    ariscott Active Member

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    Really?? D. tsaravoasira is D. 'orange crush'? I have a little D. tsaravoasira (well - sold to me as one) and it doesn't look anywhere near orange. Do they develop their colour later on??

    Regards, Ari :)
     
  3. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Ari,

    The palm that we call "Orange Crush" was introduced under the incorrect name of D. tsaravoasira. The palm that is (according to JD) really D. tsaravoasira is a completely different palm.

    So the palm you have now may be the real deal --- a palm that carried the incorrect names of D. ceracea and D. nauseosa, before being correctly identified.

    We have sure managed to confuse our Dypsis, haven't we? That is why I am trying to set up a central place to try and hash these out in a organized manner.

    BTW --- Orange Crush is now believed to be D. pilulifera.
     
  4. aussiearoids

    aussiearoids Member

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    Location:
    Tully , Wet Tropics Queensland
    Dean , I took several pics at Flecker over the weekend . What they have labeled as D.nauseosa looks very much like this sp .
    extra large images can I add them here ?
     

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  5. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    13,845
    Location:
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    Great, Always interested in larger images.

    When uploaded to the forum they are automatically re-sized. So to keep full size it is necessary to add them to the wiki.

    There is a short video tutorial on uploading photos to the wiki here. http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/images/e/e4/UploadOne.mov

    But it is not that hard. Click "Home" in the upper right of this page. Then in left hand side bar click either "Upload File" to upload one at a time - or "Special Pages" then "Upload Files" to upload up to ten at a time. Ignore any warnings about large file sizes. Should be self explanatory once on the upload page. May be better to do one at a time first to get the feel.

    Once uploaded, I will see them and can get them to the appropriate place. If you are ever interested in learning how to place them on the proper page(s) I would be happy to make a tutorial about that as well.

    Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for them.
     
  6. brodklop

    brodklop Member

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    I was finally starting to get some clarity on the D. ceracea, D. nauseosa and D.tsaravoasira mixup and seeing D. pilulifera "orange crush" as a different species until I watched the Jeff Marcus slide show of his trip to Madagascar.
    In the first slide presentation is a picture of him hugging the crownsharft of what he called D.tsaravoasira. It had an orange touch to the bottom of the crownsharft which is normal for many of the bigger Dypsis. But when he showed the next slide of the plumous leaves of D.tsaravoasira that threw all this blogs thoughts into disarray. From what I can see from photos here and in palms I have seen in person that what is being proposed as D.tsaravoasira has a flat leaf arrangement not plumouse. Now, does it go through morphological change or was it a slip of the tongue by Jeff. The palm in his slides looks a lot like the sp Jurassic park to me.
    Here are a few photos to ad to our collection to help in ID.

    Mt Cootha labled as D.ceracea

    P7020029.jpg

    P7020033.jpg

    P7020038.jpg

    P7020037.jpg
     
  7. brodklop

    brodklop Member

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    D.tsaravoasira in Daryl's garden at the Gold Coast with new reddish leaf

    P6280004.jpg
     
  8. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Good question Brod.

    Give me a chance to think a bit on this one. I'm just this minute off a plane after a long trip, and don't want to rush an answer. If I can't figure it out on my own, I owe Jeff a call anyway - and I'll run it by him. Give me a day or two.
     
  9. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Brod,

    I haven't forgotten you.
     
  10. brodklop

    brodklop Member

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    Dean,

    Thanks
     
  11. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Darn, I talked with Jeff for a while today by phone and tried to ask him several times, but we always get sidetracked. However, we did make a tentative arrangement to meet next weekend at his place to do a feature filled slideshow, interview, and Palmoramas. So, if weather permits, I'll be over there for a day and can sit with him in front of a computer, and hopefully iron this out.
     
  12. brodklop

    brodklop Member

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    Looking forward to this.

    ps. when you take high res photos of his Lemurophoenix can you get the whole palm in the frame if possible. Most photos of this palm have parts of the leaves missing. I know this is not always possible with other trees in the way.

    Cheers

    Brod
     
  13. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Sure,
    I don't think that should be a problem. At any rate it should show up in some of the Palmoramas.
     
  14. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    OK Brod,

    Let me give you the short response here.

    First, I hope you saw the new "Lemur" pics in the Encyclopedia.

    Now, regarding the D. tsar. --- You are right, there is a 'controversy' (discrepancy) surrounding the tentative ID of the palm previously known as D. ceracea/D. nauseosa, and the palm Jeff is hugging in his slideshow presentation.

    Both have apparently been IDed by J. Dransfield at different times as D. tsaravoasira. But as you have pointed out, one has very regular wider leaflets, and the other has more slender plumose and irregular leaflets.

    So without rendering an official solution to this dilemma, Jeff and I concur that they appear to be two different palms. There are some other minor morphological differences as well. And it is Jeff's opinion that the palm he is hugging is the true D. tsaravoasira as IDed by Dr. Dransfield in Madagascar. It is also Jeff's opinion that the palm he has been referring to as 'Jurrasic Park' and that originally came in incorrectly as D. 'sohanafensis' is also the true D. tsar. Here's a pic of the 'Jurrasic Park' at Jeff's

    There will probably be more pics and discussion on this when we present the slideshow. The second photo is two of Jeff's D. ceracea. Two very large specimens and hard to make out. But I thought I would post it anyway.

    CORRECTION: The palm on the left below is "Jurrasic Park" alright, but it was tentatively IDed as D. tokoravina, not D. tsaravoasira. Sorry to add to the already huge confusion. The story has not been settled on this, but it has recently flowered, and we should get a solid ID soon.
     

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  15. LJG

    LJG Active Member

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    Just some thoughts.

    What was called D. nauseosa being D. tsaravoasira makes sense. True Nauseosa comes from the south, including higher areas around Ifanadiana. We all know palms from that area of Madagascar grow well in SoCal. D. tsaravoasira does not in my opinion. It is fast as hell in the greenhouse. 4 leaves a year I got out of mine. Once in the ground it crawls and seldom holds one or two good leaves. I know Dean has one growing and it looks OK, but all of Mardy's he has had for many years only have one or two clean leaves. They struggle in SoCal through winter. D. tsaravoasira comes from the northeast where most of those palms do not do well here in SoCal.

    'Jurrasic Park'. Wasn't this stated by JD that it is Dypsis tokoravina? Did this change?

    D. 'orange crush'. It still amazes me that palm became D. pilulifera. Maybe I read it wrong and maybe it is a bad pic in POM, but they seem different to me.
     
  16. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    Len,

    As you may have noticed, this thread started as a result of noticing that the palm Jeff M was hugging in the first part of his slide show was IDed by JD as D. tsaravoasira in Madagascar. And Jeff maintains that when JD IDs a palm in Madagascar, that's the real deal. However, it's leaf arrangement is irregular, whereas the D. "nauseosa" has leaflets that are very regular. I have never seen leaflets on D. "nauseosa" do anything but lie in one plane, and very regular. And the purpose of including the pic of the two very old individuals of D. 'nauseosa' was meant to illustrate that even as large mature individuals they still have a very regular leaflet arrangement.

    I hope I didn't blow it on Jeff's take that Jurrasic park is D. tsaravoasira, but I may have. I will try and square that away during the upcoming slideshow and discussion.
    [Edit: Yep, I did blow it. I got my tsars and my tokos mixed up. "Jurrasic Park is believed to be D. tokoravina. A correction has been posted above.]

    And it's interesting that you mentioned D. pilulifera because I seem to remember a similar disagreement regarding the perfect arrangement of it's leaflets in all the many cultivated palms, as opposed to a mention in the book (and pic) of a palm with slightly irregular leaflet arrangement.

    And it is worth noting at this stage that there is a palm called D. nauseosa, but I don't think anyone is supporting the idea that the palm we are calling D. nauseosa in this thread is this palm.
     
  17. LJG

    LJG Active Member

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    Dean, I believe the true D. nauseosa was only recently collected. It was sold as D. ifanadiana to Jeff from Alfred. Gary told me tonight true D. ifanadiana stays bifid for a few leafs. He knows, he brought back seedlings from Mad (He lost them all in the fire :(). He said the D. ifanadiana that Jeff was selling goes pinnate to fast (after one leaf). Since they come from the same area, it would easy to confuse. Plus Gary said they look similar.
     
  18. LJG

    LJG Active Member

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    By the way. I am with you still on Slick Willy not being an Onily. Having grown both I can't see how they can be the same. The biggest issue is SW has a heal. How many palms you know from the same species have a heal on one plant and is non-healed palm on others?? Not to mention they look different, even large. Baronii's all tend to have similar characteristics. These two vary. I guess Pauline's flowered. Why hasn't someone sent the stuff to KEW. Would love to get closure.

    Move this to the Slick Willy thread if I am going off topic.
     
  19. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    Len,

    Thanks for the info. Did you notice I have some of Gary's pics of the D. ifana. in the Encyclopedia. The crownshft does look similar to the one we are calling D. nauseosa. I think it was Ron who brought that name into misuse. :)

    And I don't see how we can keep a Dypsis discussion in a single thread without wandering, so no problem. :) I'm glad you arrived at the truth regarding SW. Ask Mardy next time you see him if they are the same. The other big diff, (that I think is as big a deal breaker as the heel), is the method of division. I have only seen one SW send out a sucker. Otherwise, they have clumped purely by division underground - something no D. onil. has ever done.
     
  20. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    I thought I would post a pic I took today of the D. "nauseosa/ceracea" palm. No particulat reason --- other than everyone likes new leafs, especially when they show good color. I was also trying to tempt Clayton to join in with his always valued opinion on this one.
     

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  21. brodklop

    brodklop Member

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    Thanks Dean for the Lemu photos, they look awesome.
    so we may be back to a nauseosa/ceracea answer for these flat leaved palms.
     
  22. Shon

    Shon Member

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    Nice pic Dean. Got an updated one?
     
  23. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Nope,

    The next new leaf wasn't that brilliant. But it's working on another now - at least a month away.
     
  24. Blowe

    Blowe Member

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    Location:
    Queensland, Australia
    Dean, this is my first post on this forum, it is a subject close to my heart, the pics are of a palm I was sold as Dypsis Ceracea:D, so what is it really? It is nothing like Orange crush plants that I have seen, it does have an orange apperance when it drops an old leaf, but not like Orange crush I have seen.:)

    Just for scale the trunk is about 12 inches in diameter
     

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  25. BSMan

    BSMan Active Member

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    100
    If I am following right, it is known as "the artist formerly known as nauseosa" Oops, I mean PALM. :D

    Nice Palm by the way...
     
  26. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    Dean,

    beginning 5 cents....

    With all of the confusion in the scientific nomenclature in Dypsis sp., adding the common names seems to add to the confusion, don't you think? I am more and more trying to identify all plants by their Latin, rather than just using the more imprecise common names. For example, I like the Colocasia and Alocasia species.....when I see one at a nursery that I do not know and ask the employee (or owner, for that case) I get the expected answer, 'Elephant Ears'. Very disappointing, as I expect, rightly or wrongly, for the seller to know what he is selling. Maybe my standards are too high.

    Dypsis in its current state is as bad or worse than that; 'Orange Crush' is an identifier I have seen here and on PalmTalk for the past 2 years or so, yet whenever its brought up, more time is spent on what that actual species it is, or named, or identified, rather than more important aspects, like its culture, soil and water requirements and the like.

    end of 5 cents......
     
  27. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    13,845
    Location:
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    This has been one of the more confusing Dypsteries because of a double incorrect overlap with the Orange Crush.

    This is what I think I remember.

    Yes, that palm was sold as D. cerecea, but was then changed to D. nauseosa incorrectly. Previously another palm, since termed Orange Crush was sold incorrectly as D. tsaravoasira.

    Then it was offered by someone in the know that the former palm (nauseosa) was in fact D. tsaravoasira, and that Orange Crush was in fact D. pilulifera. So, to the best of my recollection, this is where things are today.

    Please note, I didn't check my notes on this, and I think I recall some doubt still in the minds of a few on this scenario.
     

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