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Dypsis prestoniana Mystery

Discussion in 'WIKI ARTICLE DISCUSSIONS' started by Dypsisdean, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Dypsis prestoniana

    Discussion thread for Dypsis prestoniana. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.
     
  2. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    I flippantly placed the palm known as Dypsis caniculata in this group for two reasons. John Dransfield doubts if this very rare palm is in cultivation. And the prevaling opinion is that several palms appearing to have this look may be the same thing.

    However, this is still wide open for discussion and re-evaluation. All views appreciated.
     
  3. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    I am unsure if Gary Levine believes that 'Big Curly' is the same as D. prestoniana or OCWS these days. I am curious, and hope he will weigh in. Any recent pics would be welcomed as well.

    If I'm not mistaken, Gary now believes the following palm is "Big Curly." IMO it bears a resemblance to the "Maria's Stumpy"/Robusta Australian Palm.

    Add to this that John Dransfield causally suggested "Big Curly" may be a form of Dypsis prestoniana, and we are back to the possibility that the Australian D. robusta is in fact D. prestoniana.

    Agree or Disagree???
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Following is some very useful first hand knowledge from Clayton York in Australia. For those who don't know Clayton, he is certainly one of the more involved growers in the world today.

    "Wow I did not know there was still so much confusion out there especially over Dypsis robusta, I would have expected it with D.prestoniana, as there are at least 3 different forms, not to mention all the different names it's been sold or collected under. The other one that needs to be added to that list is D. sp Betafaka, as I believe this to be a form of prestoniana as well. But please remove D. sp. "maria’s stumpy," as this is the true D. Robusta or first "stumpy." Maria was the only person in the world to receive this seed when it was first collected, and Jeff's plants came from her. As you would have now seen with the seedlings from Jeff Marcus, the Dypsis robusta are VERY different to any of the D. perstoniana forms --- even the really different looking D. sp. Betafaka as seedlings..!!

    The only other species that you could say that looks similar as a juvenile would be what was just named by John Dransfield as D.tsaravoasira, which was sold for years as D.ceracea, but later started to be called Dypsis nausueosa.

    The time when D. Robusta does start to look a little similar to D. prestoniana (but this would only be for those that have never grown both species side by side), would be just before its about to make a crownshaft, or before the crownshaft is clear of the ground, then it may be confusing for some --- although D. robusta has far more tomentum at this stage. But the funny thing is that D. robusta once it has a trunk over 2 feet tall, it starts to loose most of that lovely dark maroon tomentum, changing yet again!!

    One other thing --- There have been two different forms of D.prestoniana sold under the name of Dypsis canaliculata. One is just like the Dypsis sp. “Mony Mony,” or sp "big curly." The other is quite a bit different especially as a juvenile.

    To further confuse things, I believe in the first batch of Dypsis robusta seed there were a small percentage of hybrids. Jeff’ mentioned this is highly unlikely because there were no other Dypsis flowering at the time. But I have a few here, and to make things worse, seed was sent into north Queensland and then somehow sent out as D.tokoravina. As juveniles, the true D. robusta has a very white petiole --- these “hybrids” have orange petioles and grow twice as fast as any D. robusta."

    Below are two seedlings of Clayton's 'true' D. robusta. Notice the the regular, non-plumose leaflets, as opposed to the irregular leaflet arrangement in the Big Curly, OCWS, D. prestoniana, group.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    So Clayton,

    Help me get this straight. The differences between D. prestoniana and D. robusta are as follows:

    !)The seedling differences are shown above.

    2)They both have Dark Orange/Maroon tomentum as the crownshaft is beginning to emerge from the ground. However, the D. robusta loses it as trunk develops. If this is the case, then that would mean Gary's pic from above would have to be D. prestoniana --- Correct???

    3) I have noticed what may be another difference. What do you think? I have noticed that it appears as if the D. prestoniana/Mony Mony/Big Curly has a larger bulge where the petiole attaches to the sheath. I don't know the official name of a bulge like this. Hopefully you understand what I am trying to say. The D. robusta doesn't seem to have this noticible of a bulge. Am I imagining things???

    Below: A Big Curly (D. prestoniana???) (left) to compare with a D. robusta (right)
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Clayton has now sent in the following two sets of pics, and now I am confused. The first four I will post, look different than the second four I will post. But they are all labeled as D. robusta.

    Clayton, we need you help clarify what going on here. :D

    Here is the first four, and to me they look to have retained the maroon tomentum that would indicate a D. prestoniana.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    And the second set seems to have lost the colorful tomentum which would, according to Clayton, indicate D. robusta. Perhaps the first set (above) are still not old enough to have lost the tomentum???

    At any rate, i can see a difference as seedlings. But I would like to see a verifiable adult D. prestoniana to compare to the adult D. robusta. What are the differences???

    If Jeff's large flowering Big Curly is a D. prestoniana, then it would appear to me that they too lose the tomentum at the adult stage, and make the ID more difficult.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. BSMan

    BSMan Active Member

    Messages:
    100
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Dean,
    From the the palms I bought from Ron, which were ultimately sourced from Mardy, the OCWS and Big Curly were noticeably different to me from say "tub" size. Per Gary, Mardy currently thinks they are the same palm now, just from different locales. I am not so sure as that, But I currently have a OCWS and the Big Curly you pictured, growing only 6' from each other. if the "conditions" control the looks of this palm, it should start showing soon.

    (Now, to throw a real monkey wrench in the works, the more I look at my Big Curly, it does not look like the others I have seen at all. Most I have seen seem to have a very "upright" spear and leaf growth. This one is slow to gain height, almost a recurve to the leaf. I'm not sure if thats from being in a pot too long, but it also seems to have irregular leaflets, whereas most of the Big Curleys I've seen, the leaflets appear "almost regular". )

    Wheres the Slick willy section? :D
     
  9. Kim

    Kim Active Member

    Messages:
    232
    Location:
    San Diego, California USA
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused. It seems there will eventually be consolidation of these names, some will turn out to be variations within a species. But I also wonder if many of these dypsis freely hybridize, and that might account for so many variations? Of course, not being a botanist, there is much I do not comprehend. Just flapping my jaws... I haven't seen a bad-looking palm in the bunch, that's the good news.
     
  10. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
  11. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Kim,

    That's why I started the whole discussion of this group with the first order of business being the separation of D. robusta and prestoniana. The Aussie's are certain, but others were having doubts.

    But we are getting somewhere, as the Aussies (Where's Clayton :D) present a very strong argument. And I will verify the story and get Jeff Marcus' valued opinion soon.

    Then we can start the task of the other palms with all the cute nick names. And hopefully Clayton will let us know more about what he mentioned as the three types of D. prestoniana
     
  12. Kim

    Kim Active Member

    Messages:
    232
    Location:
    San Diego, California USA
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Can you bring in Dr. Dransfield?
     
  13. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,846
    Location:
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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    I am hoping that after we hash through all of this "all over the road" discussion, I will compile an agreed upon consensus (at least as agreed upon as possible), and have it presented in a coherent and documented (with pics) format on the main Dypstery reference page.

    At that point, I would also hope that JD could take a quick read of what should contain a concise summary of the collective knowledge of some of the biggest Dypsis freaks around, for him to comment on.

    I believe he has his hands full at the moment, and may in fact already have some answers to many of our questions.
     
  14. Wal

    Wal Member

    Messages:
    11
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Hi guys, one of the things to remember is that they are hard to distinguish, we'll just have to live with that. Plus, palms do change as they age, at times they may be only easy to distinguish at the juvenile stages.
     
  15. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Yes Wal,

    And if that is true, how sure can we be of the initial ID of a palm that seed comes from? In other words, if you received seed labeled as D. robusta tomorrow, from the wild --- how confident would you be that the collector could ID that palm without error?
     
  16. Clayton

    Clayton Active Member

    Messages:
    152
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Hi All,

    Let me try and list what I believe are the distinguishing differences
    between D. robusta and D. prestoniana. As seedlings the differences
    have already been pointed out. D. robusta leaflets are regular and on
    the same plane. D. prestoniana's forms leaflets are irregular grouped,
    and can be plumose. See pics in above posts.

    As they mature, they both develop colourful tomentum. D. robusta's
    tomentum is more extensive, and more of a dark maroon colour, where as
    the D. prestoniana's colour tends more toward an orange colour.

    The D.robusta tomentum normally covers the whole crownshaft. And with "most"
    of the D. prestoniana forms, the tomentum is held just above where the
    petiole meets the crownshaft. This coloration becomes most intense just
    as the palms begins forming a mature crownshaft, as they start trunking.

    As both these palms approach maturity they tend to loose this colourful
    tomentum. There appears to be a form that Gary Levine saw of a
    possible D. prestoniana which retains it's tomentum. And there may be
    others that retain a hint as well. But the D. robusta can lose 70% of
    what it had when it was first forming a crownshaft..
    This is truly when Dypsis robusta looks it's best.!!
    (Just as it's holding all it's deep maroon tomentum and forming a trunk)

    Also, it’s VERY IMPORTANT to note that growing conditions can play a major
    role in the appearance of some of these species. If one was to be grown
    in a protected semi shaded area it, would retain more of it's colour for
    much longer than one growing in an open area.
    When grown in a fully exposed location it appears as if these palms will
    lose much more of their colour and take on a whiter
    appearance.

    Below is a link to some great Hi-Def pics of Gary's possible D. prestoniana. Although I have never seen this form/species before, it
    has a different colour tomentum to that of D. robusta!
    The reason it has retained so much tomentum "could" be due to the
    amount of light or lack of direct full sun exposure these palms are
    in..? GARY'S POSSIBLE D. PRESTONIANA

    All of these Dypsis prestoniana forms have slightly different habits
    in the way they evolve,or in the way they mature --- constantly changing,
    even when near mature they change once again.!!
    Once mature they all look very similar to each other...

    The question then becomes how distant is D. robusta from this Dypsis
    prestoniana complex..? I think John Dransfield is asking the same
    question, as when he was at Jeff's place he took plant material to do
    DNA sampling.

    Clayton.
     
  17. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Thanks Clayon,

    That goes a long way to getting some definitive information, and trying to sort out this complex.

    It appears as if we will have a lot more to go on in the not too distant future with JD's DNA sampling, his latest trip to Madagascar, and with Jeff's suspected D. prestoniana (Big Curly) now flowering.

    I will update the main D. prestoniana/robusta page(s) to reflect this new info after we let this latest information marinate a bit. Perhaps someone else will have a comment or two.
     
  18. gtlevine

    gtlevine Active Member

    Messages:
    84
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Clayton posted a group of photos that I took in Madagascar. I believe these to be my Big Curly and OCWS. I am positive all the Big Curly and OCWS in So Cal are this palm. I have not seen one OCWS or Big Curly that look different enough to be seperate species. My big question is what is the palm being sold nowadays as Dypsis Prestoniana? I have two of these and they have those wide cupped leaflets, they look totally different than the Big Curly's at the same age.

    Gary
     
  19. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Gary,

    Thanks for your info. I am still unclear, and perhaps you as well judging from your post, if you think OCWS and BC are D. prestoniana?

    Apparently JD commented that Jeff's BC may be a form of D. prestoniana. And Clayton feels the pics of your 'Gary's Mystery" are D. prestoniana. BTW --- I posted all of your pics (in HI-RES) of this palm and labeled it as D. sp. 'Gary's Mystery' in the Online Encyclopedia HERE

    But then as you asked. What is the D. prestoniana going around? The pics of D. prestoniana in Jerry's Hawaii garden on the Dypstery page HERE was IDed as Clayton as D. prestoniana.

    And then we have the others. D. caniliculata, D. 'betafaka' (one form), and D. 'kanabe' as well. All very similar. Are they all just forms of D. prestoniana?

    However, note in the pic below, that the Big Curly on the right in Jeff's garden looks different to the D. robusta and D. prestoniana to the left. As I mentioned elsewhere. Big Curly seems (to me) to have these swollen areas where the petiole meets the sheath as a juvenile as well.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    These swollen areas are more easily seen in this pic taken by Bo of Jeff's BC. I don't see this feature in any of the other candidates for D. prestoniana, or D. robusta.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. gtlevine

    gtlevine Active Member

    Messages:
    84
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Dean, I really thought Dypsis Big CUrly and OCWS are Prestoniana, but Peter Bolasky took a photo that Len and Tri saw of him standing next to a Dypsis Prestoniana in habitat of St Luce and the trunk was three foot thick. Peter said they all have enormous trunks, bigger than any other Dypsis. If that is true, then it is more likely that they are in the Robusta complex. Either way, I am convinced Big Curly and OCWS are the same palm.

    Gary
     
  22. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Thanks again Gary. I hear what you are saying, and understand where your doubts are coming from.

    A similar doubt is the missing link for me in this whole discussion. I have not seen a nice clear pic of a confirmed mature D. prestoniana. And it wouldn't surprise me if (given all the info presented here) that someone could easily mistake D. robusta and D. prestoniana in habitat.

    It sure would be nice if someone could post a Hi-Def pic of a confirmed mature D. prestoniana --- and how that confirmation was established. Because so far, we have mature pics of D. robusta, one of Big Curly, one of Mony Mony, and your mystery palm. But none of a confirmed D. prestoniana.

    But BTW (and perhaps very important)--- I'll quote JD from a PalmTalk thread. "the big palm at Sainte Luce with open sheaths is Dypsis prestoniana, not tokoravina. This confirmed with herbarium specimens. (also illustrated in the Madagascar Palm Field Guide)"

    This could indicate that Peter Bolasky's photo from Sainte Luce you referred to is in fact the true D. prestoniana. And if they all have emormous three foot trunks, that would indicate to me (and as you have apparently indicated) that we may be on the wrong track with a Big Curly trunk less than half that size???
     
  23. gtlevine

    gtlevine Active Member

    Messages:
    84
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    I'm with you Dean, I know JD's description is accurate for D. Prestoniana. No confusion with D. Tokaravina since that species is found only in the north around the Masoala Peninsula. Jeff Brusseau just emailed me from St Luce. When he returns from Madagascar I will try to get him to send me a picture of the true Prestoniana, or I will have Peter send one.

    Gary
     
  24. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Thanks Gary,

    We may get to the bottom of this eventually. :D
     
  25. BSMan

    BSMan Active Member

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    100
    Re: Dypsis prestoniana

    Gary- I am just revisiting this a bit. Now that you looked close at my 2 unplanted OCWS and Big Curly, do you still think they are the same species, with no differences at all?

    My current "update" having been to Florida to see some "large" seedlings, (3-5 foot tall) is that what "I" bought as OCWS is what is being sold now as D. prestoniana and my Big Curly is D. caniculata.
     
  26. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    BS,

    Gary's been MIA for a while now. I'll Pm him and see if I can't get an answer to your question.
     
  27. brodklop

    brodklop Member

    Messages:
    21
    Here is a recent photo of the 3 D.robusta's in the Mt Cootha gardens.
    The largest has lost it's maroon tomentum on the lower leaves. The next has a little left. The smallest have plenty of tomentum

    P7020039.jpg

    Photo of bigger one with tomentum free leafbases

    P7020045.jpg
     
  28. bepah

    bepah Active Member

    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Brentwood CA 9b
    I can't grow these in my are as a rule but the discussions intrigue me.

    The number of species in Dypsis is so large and the proximity thety seem to have to each other begs the question, 'Could it be that all of these closely related, lookalike palms be natural hybrids?'

    It seems reasonable given the similarities and problems everyone seems to have in identification.

    Thoughts?
     
  29. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Thanks Brod,

    I will have to re-do the beginning discussion that started this thread. I think we may have straightened a few things out. Your recent pics are interesting - proof that they continue to lose color and tomemtum even after a foot or two of trunk has formed.

    Bepah,

    I heard that one time this topic was mentioned to John Dransfield. And the response was, "We don't even want to go there." It would open up and incredible new can of worms, when we are still dealing with this one. :)
     

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