Cleo and Victory

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by Phil Stager, Nov 19, 2013.

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  1. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,637
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    After much deliberation, pontification, and careful consideration several knowledgeable crotonologists recognized that the plant I've been calling Cleo is an old cultivar named Victory. Several of you have clones from the parent plant I got several years ago from Cleo Millare. So unless someone has some violent objections I recommend that Cleo be shifted to Victory in the Wikipedia possibly with a note that it was previously named Cleo.
     
  2. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Phil, I have your photos of Victory in my computer now, so I will put them under Victory later today. Thanks for the clarification. Ana:)
     
  3. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,752
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Phil,

    This was one of the few exciting changes made this past weekend. This is why getting all the croton growers, collectors, and anyone that has interest in this group of plants is so important. The other mystery that was solved with very little dispute, was the Victor Lemmoine plant that has been going around with pinks in it, is not the real plant and the real V.L. has reds and oranges. It several years ago came out of the old Robert Halgrim garden. The plant in question with the pinks turns out to be the true Rubens. I for one am very happy to find this out. And the plant that Judy Glock has as the blotched form of Raphael ( different leaf shape altogether ) is really the blotched form of Rubens. And looking at these, it all makes sense.
     
  4. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    So, what does this mean for the wiki? The pink one under Victor Lemoine that I kept asking about should be moved to Rubens? Also, all the plants under Blotched Raphael need to be changed to Blotched Rubens? Please advise. Thanks.:)
     
  5. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,752
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Hi Ana!

    Yes and yes. The VL plant with pinks in it is now Rubens.

    And the Blotched Raphael is now, Blotched Rubens. And many thanks for your patience!
    Jeff
     
  6. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Whoa whoa whoa.......Bob Alonzo was very uncertain when looking at the plant we thought was Victor Lemoine (in Judy's shade house). God Bless him but Bob makes mistakes. He saw Wilma and said "Colonel Bob Bullock". Someone brought a real Rubens to the auction and it matched the plant in Rick Leitner's yard that Bob Alonzo identified a few years ago. The photos submitted by Rick Leitner as Rubens for the WIKI are correct. The plant formerly called Victor Lemoine is NOT Rubens. I have both plants here and they are not the same.

    On a separate note, who identified that broad leaf plant in the auction as Roseo Pictus???? I'm surprised Bob just sat there and said nothing.

    The plants listed under Rubens submitted by Ron (Moose) should be moved to Rembrandt.
     
  7. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    To further add confusion, I purchased the plant we thought was Victor Lemoine at the Edison Estate. The tag read "Victor Lemoine". That must have come from records somewhere at that historic garden. With Bob's uncertainty, I'm switching that plant name to an unknown but with some hesitation. I love Bob's knowledge but he makes mistakes like the rest of us.
     
  8. johnnyd

    johnnyd Active Member

    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    pompano beach
    HERE WE GO AGAIN, does n0t sound like anything resolved but more confusion
    I heard many moons ago,this same argument to many quick name givers and and everyone wants to name a croton if no one can id it
    if you found a big old croton on the side of a house be sure its had a name not one you want to make up!
     
  9. waykoolplantz

    waykoolplantz Active Member

    Messages:
    142
    Ray...do you have correct ID for this plant ?
     
  10. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Hey Mike,

    I have no idea what that plant was. It looked very interesting but definitely not Roseo Pictus.
     
  11. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Ana,

    Randy's Rubens photo is also a Rembrandt.

    Ray
     
  12. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Delores 1.JPG Delores 2.JPG

    More uncertainity. Some say this is Roseo Pictus but I am not so sure. I got this from Richard Button which he named after his wife Delores. Can someone post a photo of what they have as Roseo Pictus for comparison? My doubts are aligned more to the leaf size rather then coloring. My impression was that a true Roseo Pictus has a smaller leaf.
     
  13. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Maybe Marie will post hers again.;)
     
  14. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    665
    Ana,
    I took what I thought was Rosea Picta to the Glocks the last meeting there and Bob Alonso and Mark said it was not Rosea Picta. Then Bob turned to a Dolores that was there for the auction and said that was Rosea Picta and that he hadn't seen one in years. Jeff Searle was standing there too. I think there is an old post on this somewhere.
     
  15. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    So, are we saying Dolores doesn't exist, and that all of the once thought Dolores crotons are really Rosea Picta? Are we sure enough to change it in the wiki?
     
  16. Marie Nock

    Marie Nock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    665
    I don't think the wiki should be changed yet. I recently asked Richard Button about Delores. I thought it was one he imported from Thailand but he said that it was his seedling. If you look at old posts from Sergi when he was touring Thailand, you will see many plants similar to Delores in the landscape _ perhaps Rosea Picta? Or Bob and Mark could have been confused after not having seen one in years? I think the jury is still out.
     
  17. annafl

    annafl Esteemed Member

    Thanks Marie. We'll hold tight.:D
     
  18. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    I recall that thread but I was a bit skeptical then. Couldn't recollect what Richard Button told me what the origin of Delores was, but felt it was his introduction. Marie = Thanks for following up with Richard. That has eased my mind (clearing off some fog) about Delores.

    The photos that I posted above are of a plant that is pretty heavily shaded and could be much more colorful with just a wee bit more sunlight hitting it.
     
  19. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Ana & Marie - I found the older thread Marie referred to: http://www.palmpedia.net/forum/threads/gonzales-roseo-pictus-dolores.4026/

    Interesting that Ray made a comment about Gonzales may be Roseo Pictus. There is also some alliteration to that in the description in the Wiki. The desription also attributes Roseo Pictus as having been "developed" in England and described in 1879. Then it would make sense that the true Roseo Pictus would have smaller leaves. Big huge croton leaves was not the norm until the Miami Hybridizers started making it vogue starting in the 1920-30's.

    Next question: Is the proper spelling Roseo or Rosea? I can't locate my first Frank Brown croton book to verify the historical spelling? The Wiki has it as Roseo, we need to check it.
     
  20. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b

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