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Christian's Croton Controversy

Discussion in 'THE CROTON SOCIETY' started by Crazy for Crotons, May 13, 2011.

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  1. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Folks, now that the Wilma/Colonel Bob Bullock debacle is in the rear view mirror, it's time to stir the pot again. Here's my perhaps foolish attempt at untangling the mess that is Norman Rockwell, Rembrandt, Raphael and Rubens. These are all similar and therefore confusing Aubrey Christian creations.

    First, let's post what is perhaps the easiest to identify in the bunch. Here's what I call Raphael. I think all of you will agree.

    [​IMG]
     
    Moose likes this.
  2. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Here's what I acquired as Rubens. It's similar to Raphael but has a narrower leaf with more veining and requires more light to get its distinct pink color.

    [​IMG]

    Check out this Crotons.net link with a Rubens photo.
    http://www.crotons.net/images/reubens.jpg
     
  3. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Here's what I think might be Rembrandt. Jeff, this is the same plant that's along your fenceline. Phil, this is the same plant that's along the north side of your pool cage.

    [​IMG]

    a leaf closeup showing the orange color

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Here's what has been recently labeled Rembrandt but I believe to be Norman Rockwell.

    [​IMG]
     
    Moose likes this.
  5. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Here's what we've been calling Norman Rockwell but may be something else.

    [​IMG]
     
    Moose likes this.
  6. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,736
    Location:
    South Florida, USA
    Ray,

    I agree, the pictures of Raphael and Rubens are correct.

    The picture of what you think might be Rembrandt along my back fence, dosen't look like what I have planted. My plant has a different veining pattern and the colors are different, plus the leaves I think lay flatter than those in your picture.

    In #4, that croton is very nice and is what I would call Rembrandt, although yours has maybe some more pink.

    And in #5, your plant is what I learned as Norman Rockwell. I looked in both books but some of these are not even mentioned, let alone a picture.

    Jeff
     
  7. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    The #4 came from Ricky's garden years ago. Ricky is this plant still alive? That photo was taken pre 2010 freeze and the plant has since passed on. I'd love to get another.
     
  8. koki

    koki Active Member

    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    pine island, fl
    Where does Claude Lorraine fit in? Is it a Christian? Claude Lorraine looks a lot like Rapheal.
     
  9. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    The #3 post photos looks very simular to what I have as Rubens. Jeff and Rob later told me it was not a true Rubens because lacking the pinkish hues. Could this be Rembrandt as Ray suggests?

    The #4 post photo looks like what I originally got as Norman Rockwell. When I posted photos on this forum, I was lead to believe that it was in fact a Rembrandt?

    It would be nice if this was resolved. It makes it easier to have a proper the tag when you give a cutting to fellow crotonhead. :confused:

    I'll get some pictures going this afternoon.

    Koki - Claude Lorraine was a french agnostic. :p Just kidding.
     
  10. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    This is what I am growing as Rubens. The last two photos are some of its older leaves. Could this in fact be Rembrandt?
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Orginally got this croton as a Norman Rockwell. Was told on this forum that this was in fact a Rembrandt. Now it could be Norman Rockwell aftyer all. Would love to get this one resolved. :)

    First photo is upper portion of the plant. Sun burned leaves due to my trimming back of overhead Avacado branches. The next two photos are of some older leaves indicating "normal" coloration. :confused:
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    I think those last photos are definitely Norman Rockwell.
     
  13. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Ray - you mentioned "the Christian Papers" in another thread awhile back. Could you possibly bring a couple of copies to the July 16 Croton Tour ? You said it was too large to post on this forum. :)
     
  14. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Great idea Ron. I will scan these and distribute to members via e-mail (saves trees). It's actually the Veitch, Dreer and Reasoner's catalogues from way, way back.
     
  15. junglegal

    junglegal Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    3,133
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    Awesome!
     
  16. Moose

    Moose Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    7,947
    Location:
    Coral Gables, FL Zone 10b
    Many folks acquired what we belived to be Rubens from Jeff Searle. It may have been ID'd by Bob Alonso. Then supposedly the Rubens that came from Jeff was not the true Rubens. It reportedly lacked thick pink coloration along its midrib.

    Well mine has some pink coloration getting developed alond its midrib on several heads. If Bob saw this on Jeff's plant, it may be why the ID of Rubens was made. Or could this be the true Rubens that takes awhile to develope and mature? Either way, its a very pretty croton.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Ron,

    I think your plant is Rembrandt as identified by Bob A. There's too much orange for Rubens. Rubens has the same pastel colors that you see in Claude Lorraine, Mosaic and Polychrome. By the way, the photo in post #2 is Victor Lemoine not Rubens. Rick Leitner is growing the "real" Rubens. Maybe he would be so kind as to post a nice photo. Rick?

    Phil,

    How about a photo of the Rembrandt up against your pool cage for reference?

    Thanks,
     
  18. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,585
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    OK, here you go, Ray. Taken today
     

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  19. Phil Stager

    Phil Stager Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,585
    Location:
    Sunny St. Pete, FL
    ..and if these pics come out in any order
    1 Rubens from Moose
    2. noid
    3. Labeled Rembrandt from Searle
     

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    Moose likes this.
  20. Crazy for Crotons

    Crazy for Crotons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    south Tampa, Bokeelia
    Phil,

    The plant you have labeled as Rembrandt is the "real" Norman Rockwell.

    The Rubens in your photo looks true to form.
     
  21. Bills

    Bills Banned

    Messages:
    91
    Location:
    West palm beach
    so is this norman have been trying to put a name to this one
     

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