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Can Anyone ID Dypsis arenarum???

Discussion in 'PALM TREES - WHERE TROPICAL STARTS' started by Dypsisdean, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    There seems to be a lot of confusion, or just lack of info, as to what is D. arenarum, and whether anyone has the real deal.

    Here are some pics of what I purchased as D. arenarum. It's a super fast grower. As you can see it looks a lot like D. lutescens, but it's supposed to from what I have read. Except, as you can see, it has a lot of nice color. Way more than a typical D. lutescens, and it certainly is growing a lot faster.

    Can anyone straighten me out???

    2.jpg 1.jpg 3.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  2. Clayton

    Clayton Active Member

    Messages:
    152
    Hi Dean,
    To tell the truth I have not really grown Dypsis arenarum for long enough to comment on the differences between this and Dypsis lutescens, I can say they are very close to each other though, and near impossible to tell apart as young plants, I did list some photos of Philip’s of a blue form of lutescens and I know there was talk that these could have in fact been a form of Dypsis arenarum as my collector knows these as arenarum and not lutescens also, to quote from the field guide Dypsis arenarum “differs in the longer petioles, and small number of leaflets, longer petals and robust rachillae. Also the inflorescence never branches to more than two orders”. End quote.
    So Dean you might have to wait a little longer to tell for sure what these are..? Unless someone has more experience with this species to be able to pick them at this juvenile stage..?
    Regards,
    Clayton
     
  3. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Thanks for the feedback Clayton. If you can't help me, then I may be out of luck IDing this one before it flowers.

    I gave this palm a prime location in my garden, so I would be a little upset if it ended up being a D. lutescens. ;)

    And I have no experience at all with D. lutescens. I've never grown one, so I have nothing here to compare it to side by side. I may have to buy one of the same age, and plant it close by, just to compare. :)

    I don't even know if D. lutescens have that color. Or if the leaflets on a D. lutescens of this age would be more "V"ed than this one. Or the fronds more recurved. Or if the petioles are of a different length.

    A fine "palm expert" I am. :)
     
  4. LJG

    LJG Active Member

    Messages:
    425
    I have D. arenarum from Phil. Looks nothign like yours. I have no red. My petioles are really yellow too. Mine looks more D. lutescens right now then I care for. But Phil and Rusty pushed this plant on me and I trust them. So who knows....
     
  5. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    This palm is from Phil too. I gave up on it and ignored it for about a year, cuz I figured it was just D. lutescens. Then one day I noticed it busting out of the pot and getting some color. So, I planted it, and now it's about six feet tall in that pic. And after hearing they are supposed to look like lutescens, I started getting curious. But no one can satisfy my curiosity with any real info.
     
  6. Matt in SD

    Matt in SD Member

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    14
    Wow, that's cool Dean.

    From what I can gather from POM, I don't think there is a clear way to tell D arenarum from lutescens until they flower, and even then it's not too obvious (arenarum seeds are smaller, seems like the most obvious thing). There is are a couple things in the description of arenarum though that do not sound like your palm: "Sheath...turning into the petiole after a small sharp bend, but without obvious ligules" and "opposite leaflets at an angle of 90 degrees with each other". But then yours could easily just not be big enough yet to show these two traits.

    A lot of words to say I have not idea what it is.

    Matt
     
  7. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Thanks Matt,

    I don't read the book as much as I should. But I wonder if this palm fits the description of C. lutescens any better. As you said, it may just not be old enough to demonstrate the characteristics.

    I thought D. lutescens was characterized by recurved fronds, and 'V'ed leaflets, which this palm doesn't have either.

    Can you believe it? A mystery in the genus Dypsis. :)
     
  8. ellidro

    ellidro Active Member

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    32
    Deano,

    I will try to get ahold of Rusty and get you a pic of his plant. It's awesome looking. It does look similar to lutescens but the trunk on his is snow white with a dark purple color underneath. I would guess his has a few years to flower but who knows, maybe it will be sooner.

    Nick
     
  9. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Tell Roosty to register and post his own pic. :D

    I know, just kidding - will never happen. But tell him anyway. :)
     
  10. Shon

    Shon Member

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    23
    Nick Rusty's is the other in the greenhouse labeled tokoravina? or something really similar to that. When side by side the one Rusty has is a little less similar to lutescens than arenarum. Great lookin palm though. If Steve in San Diego posts on here he has one at his work that is really cool also.
     
  11. Dave from So-Cal

    Dave from So-Cal Well-Known Member

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    3,070
    Wow, you certainly have some nice ones there on the big island.

    Hmm. I've got two, and they're colored a lot like D. lutescens. According to Palms of Madagascar, D. ars have much longer petioles and a simpler inflorescence, which if my memory serves only branches once, while D. lutes' branch twice. (Or the other way round?)

    Jeff Marcus took some pics in Madagascar and they were blue, otherwise like D. lutes.

    A lot to learn.
     
  12. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    If I remember correctly, Jeff M. mentioned that those blue ones where only a possibility, or a candidate for D. arenarum. However, I think it's safe to say the one I have will not have any blue in it.

    Dave, where is yours from, and do you think there is any blue in yours? There's a chance this would be a better palm for SoCal than D. lurescens.

    Read Clayton's post above. It has some good info. I also talked to him off-forum, and if I remember correctly he mentioned the palm pictured here may be a possibility.
    http://www.palmpedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=191
     
  13. Dave from So-Cal

    Dave from So-Cal Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,070
    Well, Jeff seemed pretty sure, but, that said, I think it's safe to say that not much is certain when it comes to Dypsis, orthopedic shoes in all colors at the ready . . . . . .

    Mine have no blue whatsoever.

    When I get home from the Dark Tower, I'll post some pictures.

    One I got from Louis Hooper, and the other I got from Kevin Weaver, and where they got them, Heaven alone only knows.
     
  14. palmnerd

    palmnerd Well-Known Member

    Hey Dean, For what its worth, if you go to Tobias' rarepalmseed site there is a pic or two of adult arenarum. In the first photo it looks as thought the plants were cleaned up a bit. His description states that culturally they posess longer petiole and fewer leaflets ranked on those petioles. I just purchsed a gaggle of these from Marcus to try to insure them for central FLA. I also picked up robusta, saintelucei albofarinosa and carlsmthii. I've never had any luck with carlsmithii. It might be one of those montane palms that we can never get to succeed here. I will give whatever feedback I can offer in the next few years. With regard to lutescens, I have noticed a lot of color variation in expression based on nutes stress and light. They grow like weeds around here, including too many in my yard. I have been heavily feeding and watering mine for the last eighteen years, and there is more green than golden in them. I was initially impressed with the arenarum's stalk coloration. It would be great to offer the arenarum as an alternative to the all too common lutescens. Check Tobias' pics out! -Justin
     
  15. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Those pics at Toby's site look to me like it would be fairly easy to differentiate between those and D. lutescens. I wish the photos were higher quality. I would really like to be able to zoom in on them.

    Here's a shot from J. Marcus of what was discussed above. It's blue, but I can't tell if it is the same as Toby's. What do you think. I think it just looks like a super blue D. lutescens. It still has recurved leaves, whereas Toby's fronds not as recurved. I'm confused. :)
     

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  16. palmnerd

    palmnerd Well-Known Member

    Hey Dean, In you're most recent photo, it looks as though the tips of the leaflets face forward. The petiole recurves more than lutescens or Toby's as you said. The abaxial side of the leaflets are strikingly blue\white, unless thats just the sunlight hitting them funny.
    I have an idea for you to put to rest this mystery. As stated in an earlier post you mentioned not having grown lutesctens. I can ship some (lutescens) seedlings out your way and you can set them up in either a pot or in the ground. It would take a few years but you could have a very practical means of comparison. I can ship them bare root and treat the roots for nematodes etc. I'm sure there's lots of lutescens out your way, but this would be a cheap way to do a side by side for a few years and then you could mulch up the lutescens. I'd be happy to send some as this is one of my projects that I am working on as well. We could then concomitantly publish our findings on Palmpedia to clear up this little mystery. Let me know what you think.
     
  17. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Thanks for the offer, but there are literally millions of lutescens on this island used for hedges almost everywhere. That is why I don't grow them. I can't go to the green waste center when there isn't a truck unloading piles of cut up trunks and fronds being uploaded.

    But what I have found, because there are so many, is that there is quite a variation. And I have seen a fairly blue variation here as well. Although not as blue as the one pictured, it is decidedly on the blueish side, not golden at all.

    And at any rate, it is against regulations to import any plant material here, unless strict regulations are followed. When I have anything imported, I have to use a friend who runs a nursery and understands and follows the rules. It is definitely not worth it to import lutescens, but thanks. i'll have to pay more attention to the ones that are growing here already. There just aren't many grown in the same "forest" environment where I am located.
     
  18. palmnerd

    palmnerd Well-Known Member

    For Future reference, I am associated with a nursery\farm that has all of the necessary phytosanitary certification that lets us ship worldwide. We can even ship to Bermuda, which as I understand is difficult. I had a feeling your area was replete with lutescens, as is the southern half of Florida. I am less inclined to send larger living plants out, but anytime we can swap interesting and unusual seed then consider it a viable option.
     
  19. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    Hawaii is a little different. While worried about pathogens, etc, hey are also worried about a fragile unique environment that is ravaged by species that have no natural controls.

    And while they don't enforce it well, they just say no to importation - period. But if you go through the right channels, and have phytos, you can do it. But with people like Jeff Marcus of Floribunda, and Kapoho Palms on this island, I can now find just about any palm I could ever desire. :)
     
  20. palmnerd

    palmnerd Well-Known Member

    My Friends with the papers etc. have much more than palms, they specialize in ethnobotanicals, rare fruit and Florida natives. And yes I know you Hawaii guys have nearly every groovy palm at your disposal. None the less if there is ever anything off the wall that you've been looking for, think of me and my cohorts. The selfish motive on my part is to try to keep an open door for trading from your part of the world. Even if it isn't you specifically, anyone one from the islands. And yes we know about invasives here, Florida is the catch basin for too many exotics. Including a lot of my beloved palms. So no biggie Dean, just something to file away. And coming back to the origin of the thread good luck with the arenarum. I will report progress with this plant from the Florida perspective. Cheers -Justin
     
  21. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,845
    Location:
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    You can never have too many "connections." So if you ever end up in this part of the world, the garden gate is always open for palm nerds. :D
     
  22. palmnerd

    palmnerd Well-Known Member

    Right on! I have a cousin in Kauai, and my wife wants to move back out there as well. She lived in Oahu for a few years. So with all that in mind perhaps someday we'll meet. I want to move to Panama and I think my wife's up for that but if money was less of a consideration in the future, then we'll be living on the big island tout suite!!!!!
    Back to Dypsis, I would like to know some cultural input with regard to carlsmithii. I have made a third and final attempt with this one this year. Dean do you know if this one is a high elevation species? I think I saw somewhere on the interent, evidence of these growing in south FLA. If there are other sea level people having luck with this I would be inspired. Cheers!
     
  23. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    13,845
    Location:
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    I'll keep my eyes out over here for any sea level ones. Bo grows the heck out of them, but he can also grow D. decipiens. Pauleen is at sea level and I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that she grows them - and I don't think she has D. decipiens. I'll find out for you this Friday at the HIPS presentation. I'll ask around.
     
  24. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    I'll be posting some more pics tomorrow. This palm now has trunk, and it is black. I have not seen any D. lutescens with black trunks. In addition, the color in the the new spear and petiole has persisted. Here's a not very good pic from last month.
     

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  25. Jeff Searle

    Jeff Searle Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Hi Dean,
    Your palm is looking alot like what I have as D. arenarum. Mine is probably 3 times larger than yours in the photo and has colors that D. lutescens dosen't. I beleive it to be the real species. Unfortunately, it's in a location where it can't be photographed to well, although Ryan took a pic. recently to make one of my cards with. It is fast and mine has now begun to flower.
    Jeff
     
  26. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Big Island of Hawaii - Kona
    This does seem to be a very fast palm. I almost threw it away more than once, and almost dug it up a few times to, thinking it was D. lutescens. But now that the trunk is showing black, it looks more like the palm in Toby's pic.

    It certainly doesn't have the recurve in the leaves as does D. lutescens.
     
  27. Palmarum

    Palmarum Moderator

    Messages:
    238
    Location:
    S. Florida - Zone 10a/b
    - As requested, photos of Dypsis arenarum. This was a large plant out for sale at the last October's Fall Searle Extravaganza. It looked great at this size and was a subject of many gestures like "...is that an Areca palm?" If you see both species next to each other they are easier to tell apart because of the leaves.

    [​IMG]

    - Upclose view of the stems...

    [​IMG]

    Ryan
     
  28. Palmarum

    Palmarum Moderator

    Messages:
    238
    Location:
    S. Florida - Zone 10a/b
    - Here are photos of the large specimen in Jeff Searle's yard. They were taken in August of 2010 and the plant has continued to grow through the winter without a problem. I need to photograph the inflorescence and flowers one day, as that is the second way to distinguish this species from D. lutescens.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Ryan
     
  29. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, I'm still confused. No black trunk or colored spear on Jeff's plant.
     
  30. Shon

    Shon Member

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    23
    We have them at JM. Jesse has a nice one and Rusty had a really nice one growing till the neighbors found out it was on their property line. Similar to lutescens but different. Rusty's had the black trunk and the purple to red spear. Jeeff's doe not look like the ones we have ours looklike the one you have Dean.
     
  31. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    Thanks for posting the pics Ryan.

    Jeff's does not look like Dean's, but it's obviously not D. lutescens. I have a palm that was unlabeled that looks a lot like Jeff's. I've been calling it the skinny trunk upright D. onilahensis for lack of a better way to describe it. It's flowering too.
     
  32. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Matty,

    You should grab one of those at JM. They are a very nice palm.
     
  33. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    I know, it's just hard to bring myself to get a palm that looks just like D. lutescens. I've found some really nice D. lutescens substitutes that grow fast, love sun, look perfect all year...the coolest one is the palm labled as D. ambositrae clumper.
     
  34. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Here's a few updated pics.
     

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  35. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

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    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    We were discussing these at Jungle Music the other day. Jessie swears that they are different than D. lutescens even though they look the same to me. He said that they seem to grow faster and take more sun too.
     
  36. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    I can say the do grow faster. And I don't see how they can be D. lutescens when they don't have any recurve to the leaves at all. Plus, I have yet to see a D. lutescens with a black trunk. So what's up with that? How can they look the same to you, Mr. ID Expert?
     
  37. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    4,816
    I have never seen a D. lutescens with a black trunk. I really should go take a look at my lutescens, its one of the palms that I planted years ago and forgot.
     
  38. MattyB

    MattyB Moderator

    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Spring Valley, CA
    Easy there gump bucket. I was talking about small plants at the nursery. Did you drink your Ensure today?

    BTW, D. lutescens in the shade doesn't have recurved leaves or leaflets.
     
  39. Dypsisdean

    Dypsisdean Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    Well, you're sorta kinda maybe partially correct. As a young plant, I couldn't tell any diff.

    But as it gets larger, it gets a much deeper green - not "golden cane" looking. And D. lutescens does have some recurve in half/half sun/shade. But until I saw the black trunk, I was still on the fence. Explain that away you little whippersnapper.
     
  40. ScotTi

    ScotTi Esteemed Member

    Messages:
    4,816
    D. lutescens growing in shade.
     

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